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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:03 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:39 am
Posts: 367
Location: Melbourne
Tinea Pedis wrote:
Add me to list of those behind Steve Hogg's method.

Definite improvements for me.


Yep, me too. Night and day for me.


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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:03 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:09 pm 
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Shop Wrench

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 164
Location: Belgian border
Hi,

Last winter I had a Retul bike fit and for the new season I want to tweak my position a bit.
I wont change much overall but would like to set my cleat position about 3 or 4 mm more backward (now 7 mm behind ball of foot, to 10/11 mm behind ball of foot). Obviously I need to lower my saddle height (therefore also setback) to compensate.
Not planning on doing another Retul fit just for this as this costs money.

I know it's a long shot, but maybe some fit experts here can help:
Is it safe to say that when I set my cleats 4 mm backwards, my saddle has to lower 4 mm as well? Or is it not that simple?

Thanks,

roselend.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:27 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:21 am
Posts: 119
Could you not move your saddle 4mm forward?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:39 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 8273
Location: Geelong
It's not a 1:1 ratio.

I'll see if I can find the literature around it...

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http://www.nicksquillari.com.au


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 5389
Location: Bay Area
There isn't a ratio- it depends on how much more your heel drop and extension changes. Your ankle and knee angles might not change a whole lot with just 4mm, but I recently moved my cleats back about 15mm and had to move my seat forward about 7 to obtain similar angles.

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Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
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Strava


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:53 am 
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Location: Geelong
Steve Hogg would beg to differ.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:03 pm 
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Location: Bay Area
Weird because I asked the question on his website and posted his response here almost exactly. He even writes that there are no formulas, but that with every change one should re-asses the key metrics used for proper saddle height and setback.

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Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
Gramz
Strava


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Shop Wrench

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 164
Location: Belgian border
Link?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:57 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 8273
Location: Geelong
I read it a year or so ago, for every x of set back he recommended y of change.

The beauty of Steve is that he's happy to change his mind and go back on what he's said previously if he's found it doesn't work.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:17 pm 
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Shop Wrench

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 164
Location: Belgian border
Well, I dug deep in the internets and all I came up with is this:

Quote:
I don't know that there is necessarily a predictable relationship between the two as individual response to a change in either
varies significantly. If you move your cleats back 10mm, then *generally* seat height would drop somewhat because you are reducing ankle movement somewhat as well as extending the leg more. I underlined 'generally' because I've seen exceptions where a more rearward cleat position caused a change to the rider's pedalling technique to the extent that seat height could be left unchanged or on rare occasions raised.
Quote:
If you moved your cleats back 16mm, you will almost certainly have needed to drop your seat height. Possibly up to 10mm.
Link: http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/04/power-to-the-pedal-cleat-position/


But I did come up with this regarding saddle fore-aft/height (probably the bit Tinea was talking about). Comes in pretty handy because I'm putting the saddle a bit more backwards to.

Quote:
With most seats, moving the seat forward decreases measurable seat height and moving the seat backward increases measurable seat height. Typically, if you move a seat forward 3mm you have reduced seat height by 1mm and if you move a seat backward by 3mm you have increased seat height by 1mm.
Link: http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/09/all-about-smps/

Slightly off-topic, but I always seem to forget how much valuable information Steve Hoggs website has..
For example, instructions on changing seats at the bottom of the post: http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/09/all-about-smps/
Figured this out by myself already but he explains it very well.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:47 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1955
Isn't this just basic geometry ?
If your seat tube angle is 73°, then (90-73) = 17°
The Tangent of 17° is .306

So if you move the seat back (horizontally) by 3mm, you would need to also move it down by 3mm*.306 = .918mm, which is approximately the 1:3 ratio cited by Hogg.

If your frame has some other geometry, you could plug in those numbers.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:30 pm
Posts: 366
SQ wrote:
Tinea Pedis wrote:
Add me to list of those behind Steve Hogg's method.

Definite improvements for me.


Yep, me too. Night and day for me.


And another here.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 5389
Location: Bay Area
As an update, I'm feeling much better on the bike with my cleats setup for the ball to be 9mm in front of the pedal axis and I'm going to put on the adapter plates to move them even a tad further back. Not mid-foot, but still my peak power and jump in a sprint hasn't diminished and my output is higher/more constant.

_________________
Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
Gramz
Strava


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 8273
Location: Geelong
roselend, there is that ratio. However when I had a fit with Steve and in his dealings with us, if a customer is truly running their cleats decently setback then there are geometry considerations he makes when putting together their custom geo for Baum to build.


KW, you wouldn't notice a difference in your sprint. From what Steve again has said, you would need to be pushing about double the amount of setback that you have to possibly start lacking some kick in the sprint. Flip side though would be you should be even more efficient in holding a 5min power (so might not need the sprint :twisted: )

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http://www.nicksquillari.com.au


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 5389
Location: Bay Area
Tinea- do you work for Baum now?

To everyone else- I highly recommend that you do each shoe separately and also measure the distance from your heel to first metarasal. My right foot is almost a full cm shorter than my left, which made a big difference in setup.

_________________
Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
Gramz
Strava


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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:15 pm 


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