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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:08 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:28 am
Posts: 27
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Just wondering, is there any benefit in using a latex inner tube in a tyre such as this one? I mean it's not as if it's a high tpi count one. Especially not if you consider its true TPI count as opposed to the odd formula Conti is advertising its products with, ist it.... :?: :?:

One of these days Conti's going to sue me for sure.... :P

Ciao, ;)


I am actually wondering about this too... I usually run the Conti tubes with a 60-80mm valve stem simply so I don't have to run a valve extender.

What is the benefit of a latex tube? Are they just lighter?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:33 am 
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Location: Athens, Greece
fdegrove wrote:
Just wondering, is there any benefit in using a latex inner tube in a tyre such as this one? I mean it's not as if it's a high tpi count one.

IMHO no

Challenge tires are nice also. I had a pair 2 seasons ago. Not as good as Vittoria or Veloflex but a nice high tpi tire, way better than Continental, Maxxis, Michelin etc.

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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:33 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:34 pm 
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Location: Reims, France
Not to hijack the OP, but I would like to pose the question from a slightly different direction. What is the best tire from the standpoint of comfort and then longevity/durability.

I love the comfort and responsiveness of the Schwalbe ZX. On the right bike, they can smooth the roughest of road at 100psi (I weigh 80kg). They manage corners with great confidence. The down side is they are extremely susceptible to cuts and punctures (some are, some are not, your mileage may vary), so you might be comfortably descending that twisty road until they fail, and then you are SOL.

I have just mounted and ridden Vittoria Pavé. At 100 psi, they transmit chip seal more directly, almost too much. At 120, they are not tolerable. They are more resistant to damage. They are 60grams heavier. Handling is without problem. I would love to find a tire with the same level of durability with comfort/responsiveness to the Schwalbe with the durability of the Vittoria. Is there anything out there?

The Continental 4000s seems to be the favorite so far. If you were to vote on the best tire for comfort on chip seal vs longevity, would it still be the 4000s?

Thanks,
Ron


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:01 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 896
Location: Calgary
On the OT, I've ridden a lot of Vittorias and Vredesteins over the last 10 years or so. Loved the feel of the Vits, found the rear would be susceptible to flats after about 1,000-1,200 km. Vredesteins work better in that respect - the rear will last about 2,000 km, maybe more, but they don't feel quite as good.

Bought some Velflex black 22s and put them on my #1 bike. About 1,500 km so far and they aren't flatting yet and the ride seems as good as the Vittorias. However, Veloflxe isn't readily available here and the mail order guys seem to be out of blacks so I'll have to try Record or something next time.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:03 am
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Location: San Diego California
Unless you're doing TT's on very clean roads, I would not recommend Veloflex Records. They are very light and can flat easily.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Agreed. Records are way too fragile for this kind of use.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5779
Location: Belgium
Hi,

rjfrzb wrote:
Not to hijack the OP, but I would like to pose the question from a slightly different direction. What is the best tire from the standpoint of comfort and then longevity/durability.

I love the comfort and responsiveness of the Schwalbe ZX. On the right bike, they can smooth the roughest of road at 100psi (I weigh 80kg). They manage corners with great confidence. The down side is they are extremely susceptible to cuts and punctures (some are, some are not, your mileage may vary), so you might be comfortably descending that twisty road until they fail, and then you are SOL.

I have just mounted and ridden Vittoria Pavé. At 100 psi, they transmit chip seal more directly, almost too much. At 120, they are not tolerable. They are more resistant to damage. They are 60grams heavier. Handling is without problem. I would love to find a tire with the same level of durability with comfort/responsiveness to the Schwalbe with the durability of the Vittoria. Is there anything out there?

The Continental 4000s seems to be the favorite so far. If you were to vote on the best tire for comfort on chip seal vs longevity, would it still be the 4000s?

Thanks,
Ron


Try some Veloflex and a nice latex inner tube next. Be surprised. :lol:

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:49 pm 
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My current fav is the Vittoria Open Pave.

I much prefer the extra comfort of a sightly higher volume tyre, and they're really robust. At 165-170lbs, I found Open Corsas to be too prone to flats, and they wear much faster than the Paves.

A long time ago, on a commuting route far, far away, I used to ride Krylions. They're pretty good as far as all round / training tyres go, but they're a bit wooden compared to the top rubber mentioned here.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
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Location: Natovi Landing
TPI is overrated in clincher tyres. Someone needs to say it.

Yes, if you're using latex it is more of a game-changer, but if you're using latex you are making other compromises that a lot of time I could not live with. And I'm not alone. I'd venture that it's a small %age of clincher time that's spent on latex - even among users on this board.

On butyl it's a wash. I agree with the earlier poster, Conti GP4000S / Force give a better ride than Vittoria "Open" :roll: CX clinchers, which are ok, but nowhere near as good as claimed by those who sing their praises to associate themselves with the altogether more enjoyable world of tubulars.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:16 pm 
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sawyer wrote:
TPI is overrated in clincher tyres. Someone needs to say it.

Why?
sawyer wrote:
I agree with the earlier poster, Conti GP4000S / Force give a better ride than Vittoria "Open" CX clinchers

Have you tried both?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Location: Natovi Landing
kgt wrote:
sawyer wrote:
TPI is overrated in clincher tyres. Someone needs to say it.

Why?
sawyer wrote:
I agree with the earlier poster, Conti GP4000S / Force give a better ride than Vittoria "Open" CX clinchers

Have you tried both?



Yes, on the Conti and Vittoria range I have tried (to name a few):

GP3000
GP4000
GP4000S
GP4000S 25mm
GP Force
GP Attack
Competition Tubular
GP4000 SR Tubular

With Vittorias ...

SC EVO
CX Clincher 23mm
CX Clincher 25mm
CX Clincher 290tpi
CG clincher
CX tubular in all sizes

etc. etc.

I'd doubt that with butyl tubes many people on this forum could correctly accurately distinguish TPI.

The point really is that it's not all there is to ride quality.

Perhaps with a latex tube the case is stronger, but that requires other compromises.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Οk, I can accept that but you did not answer why a butyl tube would negate a high tpi tire's ride quality. I agree a latex tube would ride even better but still with a butyl tube you can instantly feel the difference between a 300tpi and 100tpi tire.

At least my personal experience with a lot of different tires, lower and higher tpi (including Continental and Vittoria) was that higher tpi tires (open tubulars) were always feeling much better even with cheap butyl tubes.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:51 pm 
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Location: Natovi Landing
kgt wrote:
Οk, I can accept that but you did not answer why a butyl tube would negate a high tpi tire's ride quality. I agree a latex tube would ride even better but still with a butyl tube you can instantly feel the difference between a 300tpi and 100tpi tire.

At least my personal experience with a lot of different tires, lower and higher tpi (including Continental and Vittoria) was that higher tpi tires (open tubulars) were always feeling much better even with cheap butyl tubes.



Fair enough. Open tubular is just a marketing ploy though. It's a clincher. It's effective of course. People think they are buying into a superior product that's closer to a tubular. It isn't a tubular because it isn't a tube.

Perhaps the high-end tyres that aren't advertised as high TPI find another way to compensate?

Is there any independent testing that TPIs are what manufacturers say they are? Or do we just take it on trust when we should all know better? :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:40 pm 
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Location: Reims, France
Great discussion on the merits of high tpi clinchers vs tubulars.

A question though concerning the weight of the butyl inner tube. I tried initially to use a continental supersonic with the Vittoria Pave but promptly pinch flatted the tube when mounting as the tire is a very difficult to mount. The tube circumference was too large to fit in the available space when slightly inflated.. So I went to the Continental Race 28 standard tube, which is larger in cross section but smaller circumference and handles a little more abuse.

I'm 80kg. The ride quality on the Pave at 100psi is fine for bumps and major deviations, but really harsh, when compared to Schwalbe ZXs, over bad chip seal pavement. I'm guessing it is also more stiff than a CX or 4000s. Yet, with 340 tpi, should offer a more compliant ride. Does the weight of the tube make a significant difference in the ride quality? Sawyer, what inner tubes are you using?

Thanks,
Ron


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Location: Natovi Landing
rjfrzb wrote:
Sawyer, what inner tubes are you using?

Thanks,
Ron


Vittoria Ultralite (i.e. c80g) most of the time. Though also use Specialized Turbo, Bontrager XXXL (when they are available and not stupidly priced), and Michelin A1. Have also used latex - Vittoria and Michelin.

To give a specific example of ride quality that makes me question the claimed TPI is king school of thought ... I find P2Rs to have better ride quality than Vittoria CX 320tpis. Same tubes and wheels.


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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:15 pm 


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