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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:56 am 
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Does anyone have experience training with super heavy wheels? I've put together a 700c wheelset that is coming in close to 4000grams with tires/tubes. This seems like an effective way to build muscle and to train yourself in a manner that would make switching to your race bike/wheels that much more noticeable. I have my training material from last winter's training camp so I can easily duplicate what we were doing on the spin bikes (XX cadence with XXX HR, intervals, etc.), but I am wondering about any downsides besides increase brake pad use, chain stretch, etc. and I am sure they will handle differently.

I ask because I would like to know of any downsides to this approach. Knee aches/pains? Wrong approach, don't even think about it? I am fine with looking like a slow ass uphill as long as this gets the results that I am looking for (another means of increasing muscle mass). I can train fine on a spin bike, but riding outdoors is much more enjoyable. I plan on riding these wheels for all occasions (practice crits, local group rides, centuries, recovery rides, etc. that we have locally) except for race days when the fancy bike/wheels are brought out.

I may try to race with these wheels but I am sure I will get spit out the back pretty quick. Any advise or input is greatly appreciated. I am putting these on a heavier steel bike as well to make the whole package heavier for training purposes.

Thanks,
Christian.


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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:56 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:05 am 
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A psychological advantage is still an advantage.

That's about the extent of the training benefit you'll get.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:22 am 
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gert jan theunisse, pretty sure he was king of the mountains in 88, had a rear wheel with a hight profile rim filled with with lead.......it worked for him i say !(-:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:51 am 
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Location: ny,ny USA
2 years ago i usede to ride/race on zipp 303 1080 grams total weight maybe 1500.i don't race anymore but i ride a regualar aluminium 30 mm aero wheelset that weights close to 4500 grams total weight.fast group rides and on same 1 mile local 10% incline climb i am also faster.. but is also due to lots more mileage/training the before when i was in the zipps.Just build slowly and you basically will b riding abouut 1-2 gears shorter cos of the heavier wheelset .but as your legz build up the strenght/endurance -it takes a few months you will definetly notice you have lots of torque and also a heavier wheel keeps it's mometum on flats easier i feel. And if you change to light wheelset i'm pretty sure you will go crazy fast. I don't invest anymore in light wheelset as i am quite fast and satisfied with where i am now.of course is a couriosity how is the difference...


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:07 am 
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In the end, it comes down to wattage. If you're putting out a higher wattage due to the psychological effect of the wheels, go nuts, but objectively there's no physiological difference, as to your training outcomes, between a light and heavy wheelset.

That is to say that there are not differences in the way you'd ride each pair of wheels. The heavier wheels would hold their speed better, and take longer to accelerate, which will in turn affect how you ride. Conversely the lighter wheels will spin up faster, but would be inclined to shedding speed a little faster (if we assume the aerodynamics properties of each wheel are identical). So the differing wheelsets might affect your speed during different parts of the ride, but they won't affect your training outcomes.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:13 am 
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The very tricky aspects of inertia loaded cycling aside there is ZERO physiological benefit to training with heavy bike, wheels, backpack, whatever.

You may think you're faster, and because of the weight reduction maybe you are but if you want to train to ride faster... then ride faster.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:59 am 
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I only time trial so my training wheels are lighter than my race wheels. My race wheel are by far the heaviest wheels I own. A HED H3 in front and a disc in back.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:13 pm 
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I saved up and brought a set of very light track wheels and made the mistake of using them first time at our regional champs in a 500m TT. Spent most of the ride bouncing around the track.

Most track riders do all their training on the track in race kit, race helmets, skinsuits and race wheels.

I would suggest the specificity principle applies to using similar equipment in training as you race in much the same way it applies to performing intervals in a similar manner to how you intend to perform.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:51 am 
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I think there are better ways to make your training effective and diverse. Maybe climbing with extra weight once or twice a week can help developing power though. I sometimes do it, but just by mashing harder gear.

As others have pointed out, people function differently though. For me variation is key to keep me motivated, for others it's maybe masochism or whatever ...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:37 am 
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michel2 wrote:
gert jan theunisse, pretty sure he was king of the mountains in 88, had a rear wheel with a hight profile rim filled with with lead.......it worked for him i say !(-:
That is the plan. Only time will tell how effective it is for me. Ultimately, I agree with a few on here, I simply need to train more, better, harder, smarter, etc. That is something that I did not keep up on during the race season.

I used to ride century rides every week or two last year, that appears to have help with my endurance last year. I am integrating those rides back into my off days and I will pay attention to signs of fatigue and over-training. I am also setting up some training in the various canyons that we have access to here in SL,UT. I love being minutes (less than 30) away for the mouth of several great canyons/hills; Emigration, Millcreek, Big Cottonwood, Little Cottonwood, Suncrest, etc.

CoachFergie wrote:
I saved up and brought a set of very light track wheels and made the mistake of using them first time at our regional champs in a 500m TT. Spent most of the ride bouncing around the track.

Most track riders do all their training on the track in race kit, race helmets, skinsuits and race wheels.

I would suggest the specificity principle applies to using similar equipment in training as you race in much the same way it applies to performing intervals in a similar manner to how you intend to perform.
Understood, thanks for the insight. Training with race gear makes perfect sense...although, I don't believe that I am at the level where training with full race gear is helpful, or that switching will be harmful to my performance. I simply need to train smarter.

What I feel happened was I rode with my race gear (light steel bike with Mad Fiber wheels) for everything. I placed well in the first few races, even podiumed twice. A few months later and I can tell that I've lost leg muscle mass, more likely to the lack of attention to keeping up on the training when I was not racing, but ultimately I got slower as my fellow racers (that did not train in the winter) got faster. I think that my recovery rides became too casual and riding on the Mad Fiber wheels for just about everything actually ended up hurting me.

sorin wrote:
Just build slowly and you basically will b riding abouut 1-2 gears shorter cos of the heavier wheelset
I thought the same so I ordered a 12-28 cassette for the new wheels...chrome plated ~400 grams of anti-WW goodness. ;)

I will update all with the final wheel weight once the wheels are built up and ready to go. Thanks to all for their comments thus far.

Christian.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:37 pm 
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Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland
I ride with Shimano R500s with heavy tyres and a cheap cassette and also Mavic CCUs with lightest possible everything. They ride differently but it doesn't make any difference to the training quality. The CCUs are faster, but the R500s are surprisingly nice to ride as they're stiff and roll well.

In the past I tried the Robert Millar trick of using cut up tubs inside clinchers to make the bike slower, but it's a stupid idea. It killed the ride and grip and was frankly dangerous round any corner in the wet. Much better to ride 0.1mph faster to burn up the watts.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:52 am 
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Location: D.C.
here in the us- so many guys train on their race wheels. don't know if it affects fitness but kills the psychological benefits of race wheels on race day..


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:34 am 
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In my experience running 2 sets of wheels, for training and racing didnt work. I tried it for a while as a MTBer. I found the characteristics between the two sets of wheels too different and come race day I had less confidence because my race wheels felt so different being 300 grams lighter and they flexed differently when pushing hard through technical sections.

I assume some of the same "feel" issues may come up on the road.

I guess it's like practicing for a race in a race car with road wheels and tyres, then switching to race wheels and slicks for the race. It would take so long to adapt to the race set up many gains in weight and grip would be lost.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:53 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
The very tricky aspects of inertia loaded cycling aside there is ZERO physiological benefit to training with heavy bike, wheels, backpack, whatever.

You may think you're faster, and because of the weight reduction maybe you are but if you want to train to ride faster... then ride faster.


Well if he rides those 4kg wheels uphill on his local hill, won't it be better leg strength/fatigue training than using a lighter bike?
(Assuming he goes up the hill, then rolls down, repeats 10-18 times a set?)

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Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:53 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:56 pm 
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fietser wrote:
here in the us- so many guys train on their race wheels. don't know if it affects fitness but kills the psychological benefits of race wheels on race day..


I will have some alu clinchers for training(soon) and some race carbon tub wheels. I use to train on race wheels, because I needed to be able to and familiar with changing them and get experience with their diffrent handling/depth for raceday so for me training wheels where and will be only used a good bit(like 3 weeks) away from a race.

Then again I ride long Tris where flats are self-only and happens not-rarely. At $500 a race for the IMs, DNFing cause of a flat is just not an option for a non-Pro ;)

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