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CharlesM

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:51 am

Formerly known as PezTech

Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:37 am
Posts: 5574
Location: Phoenix Arizona

What formula specifically are you using in your BS test? :wink:

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lcoolb

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:23 am

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:25 pm
Posts: 313
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia / The Hague, Holland

prendrefeu wrote:

lcoolb wrote:

Because the GC is mostly determined in the mountains? Might be interesting to look at the GC's of flat(ter) stage races...

You didn't read the full post?

I think I did, well, I don't remember actually :oops:

Anyway, I missed your point entirely (which was also my point), sorry...
NOTE TO SELF: Never post again after finishing nearly two bottles of Merlot...

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djconnel

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:31 am

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 6899
Location: San Francisco, CA

PezTech wrote:

What formula specifically are you using in your BS test?

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NGMN

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:32 am

Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 7:13 am
Posts: 1456

djconnel wrote:

Lennard Zinn:

I took a Venge out on a four-hour ride in the Carmel Valley and over Laureles Grade back to the Specialized 2012 Product Launch in Monterey. While it is still quite a light bike that responds well to pedaling inputs, I think a rider would really have to drink the aero-testing Kool-Aid to choose it as his or her weapon of choice.... On the other hand, you don’t have to be particularly sensitive to feel the jarring while riding this bike on rough roads. The shoulder of the road in Carmel Valley is quite rough, and I couldn’t wait to get off of the Venge; it’s simply too harsh a ride for me,

Who wants to wager that Leonard got on thinking "this thing is going to be harsh?" Who else wants to wager that the tires were different(hell, did he check the tire pressure)? And the wheels were different?

Cavendish rode the Venge for many a stage in LeTour, maybe even all? He seemed to come out all right.

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rustychain

Post subject: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:49 am

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:42 pm
Posts: 3911
Location: lat 38.9677 lon 77.3366

PezTech wrote:

What formula specifically are you using in your BS test? :wink:

Aero test that don't tell you what they are measuring, or how the are measuring and claim under all conditions they save watts. Are we talking frames, frames and forks, complete bikes, bike with riders........... Details matter

what do you need to call BS?

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LegalizeMyCannondale

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:59 am

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:53 pm
Posts: 46

First of all I apologize, I know this doesn't add anything to the discussion and might not even be that funny; I just thought of Cavendish calling the Specialized HQ to complain about his Venge:

- Specialized headquarters, how can I help you?
- Hi, this is Cavendish, Mark Cavendish. I am calling from France, I've been racing on the new Venge for over 10 days now,
and to be quite honest I couldn’t wait to get off of the Venge; it’s simply too harsh a ride for me.
I was just wondering if perhaps you guys could come up with a more forgiving frame?! I don't know if I can carry on riding this,
I might borrow someone else's bike, or get a Litespeed or Softride - cheers!!

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elviento

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:03 am

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:09 pm
Posts: 1122
Location: In the industry

Here are a few thoughts in response to this:

1. In a pro race scenario, team work is more important than the bike's aero-ness. For example, Lance had Heras, Hincapie, Rubiera, Leipheimer, etc. to improve his "aerodynamics". The only situation where bike aerodynamics are that important is in a breakaway situation... That does not mean the aero bike itself is not faster.

2. Pros are paid to ride whatever they are given.

FInally, I agree it's the rider that makes the most difference. But bikes can help a bit...

Also a comment on the other gentleman's post reagarding Venge being harsh for Zinn -- Zinn and Cav probably do not necessarily have the same level of physical fitness, riding preference and priorities... Plus tires, saddle, tape can all make a big difference on comfort, as has been said many times before.

prendrefeu wrote:

Top Twenty of the Tour de France 2011:

1 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek
3 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek
4 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Team Europcar
5 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Saxo Bank Sungard
6 Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
7 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre - ISD
8 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale
9 Thomas Danielson (USA) Team Garmin-Cervelo
10 Jean-Christophe Peraud (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale
11 Pierre Rolland (Fra) Team Europcar
12 Rein Taaramae (Est) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne
13 Kevin De Weert (Bel) Quickstep Cycling Team
14 Jerome Coppel (Fra) Saur - Sojasun
15 Arnold Jeannesson (Fra) FDJ
16 Haimar Zubeldia Agirre (Spa) Team RadioShack
17 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Team Garmin-Cervelo
18 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Team Garmin-Cervelo
19 Peter Velits (Svk) HTC-Highroad
20 Jelle Vanendert (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto

Number of non-TT road bikes that would be considered "aero" ridden during the tour by racers who finished in the top twenty of the 2011 Tour de France: 0

Will it make a difference on a one-day race (or stage) ? Possibly. It depends on the stage and the rider, really.

Of the number of classics this year, how many were won on an 'aero' road bike?
How many were won on an non 'aero' road bike?

Is there a way we can gather all of the Pro Tour sprint-finishes this year and see how many were won on an aero bike vs. how many were won against other riders on aero bikes?

Will this ultimately point to what we keep reminding ourselves all along: it's the rider that makes the difference most of all, and the frame the least in terms of 'aero' on a bike?

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prendrefeu

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:54 am

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 6626
Location: Los Angeles

elviento wrote:

1. In a pro race scenario, team work is more important than the bike's aero-ness. For example, Lance had Heras, Hincapie, Rubiera, Leipheimer, etc. to improve his "aerodynamics". The only situation where bike aerodynamics are that important is in a breakaway situation... That does not mean the aero bike itself is not faster.

True, however just like environmental factors such as weather/wind/yaw/whatever, team tactics will always be a factor in racing. This is a team sport, afterall. The argument still stands whether it is yesterday, today, or tomorrow. Despite how much things are promoted to be of a certain quality in 'ideal' scenarios - such as that of a wind tunnel, for example - reality over the course of a race, whether it is a stage race or a one-day race, will take precedence.

elviento wrote:

2. Pros are paid to ride whatever they are given.

Correct, however they also got to choose: several teams were sponsored by a brand that carries/promotes an aero frame. Not all of their riders chose to ride that aero frame. Again, reference the results in correlation with this.

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airwise

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:45 am

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:31 pm
Posts: 671

madcow wrote:

Not sure what this counts for as I can't give any real details but here's what I bring to the party.

A major bike manufacturer (one of the big guys) lets call them brand A held a meeting internally to discuss the emergence of aero road bikes. They thought they determined without any testing that these aero road bikes were pointless. Their reason was that they knew once a couple of round bottles were bolted to an aero road bike, most the aero savings would go out the window and you'd be left with a bike that isn't really any faster but does suffer from a loss of ride quality. A couple engineers argued that the others might be wrong, so they decided to test this. They went out and bought an aero bike from Brand B, which was thought to be the best design. They took Brand B to the windtunnel, fitted it with some round bottles and tested it. I'm told that the results were quite impressive. In their tests Brand B saved 125-175 grams of drag in almost every situation when compared to a more traditional frame (I'm assuming a traditional frame is a Brand A frame.) Brand A was quite impressed with the performance of Brand B's bike, and since this was them telling me how well a competitors bike tested, I can be reasonable sure it wasn't just marketing b.s. This is a company that I know spends lots of money on R&D and so I would respect their opinion when I believe it to be honest.

They did say that doing comparisons to their own acceptable standards for "ride quality" Brand B was outside of what they'd consider acceptable but that they had some ideas for their own aero road bike as to make it even more aero than the Brand B that they tested (this I have no doubts they can or did do.) and they also had some ideas to improve the ride quality.

It's a really great way of explaining a U turn on aero bikes to their dealers that's for sure :wink:

After all. You DO need aero because the manufacturer DOES need another lucrative revenue stream. There is absolutely no other quantifiable justification for the BS mumbo jumbo being spouted by just about all mainstream manufacturers these days.

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sawyer

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:38 pm

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 3131
Location: Natovi Landing

on the Zinn ride quality issue - note that by his own admission the roads were crap. TdF on the other hand is run almost entirely on billiard table smooth roads.

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Ypsylon

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:38 pm

Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 1367

I'm not sure the riders at the TdF would agree with that statement.

airwise wrote:

It's a really great way of explaining a U turn on aero bikes to their dealers that's for sure :wink:

What U turn though? I haven't even figured out which company it is and no company I know of has said anything about aero road bikes to make a 180° turn possible or necessary, but, then again, very few companies call me to tell me what they think about aero road bikes, so I might have missed it.

If you believe that aero road bikes work you have a choice. Do I want the one that makes me faster for the same amount of pedaling or do I want the one that is more comfy while I have to pedal a little longer til I get back home?

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coloclimber

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:01 pm

Moderator

Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:11 pm
Posts: 3167
Location: People's Republic of Boulder

sawyer wrote:

on the Zinn ride quality issue - note that by his own admission the roads were crap.

Zinn's comment about harsh riding aero frames and the compromise in ride quality is true in my limited experience on SLC-SL, S3, S5, Foil and Time RXR. It adds to his credibility to use the "kool-aid" quote and then say he couldn't get off the frame fast enough. Too bad he didnt compare it to the SL4 on the same roads and he retreated by saying the roads were harsh. That way he saves face for one of VN's largest advertisers. But then again LZ still rides lots of steel and ti.

In my opinion an aero frame is a priority if you have already maximized position, wheels and helmet. It still cracks me up to see all the tri geeks who got fit by "dr" Pruitt and have a stack of spacers, bento boxes and mirrors.

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MattSoutherden

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:41 pm

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:22 pm
Posts: 663
Location: London

prendrefeu wrote:

Out of 19 road stages this year, how many were won by riders on an aero bike? - 7

Cav: 5, Thor: 1, Gilbert: 1

So over 1/3, and I think that number is only going to keep on rising.

Now I'm only playing devil's advocate here, but statistics can be made to say a lot.

p.s. The most recent classic was won on an aero bike. (Admittedly that hadn't happened when you posted the question...

)

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rustychain

Post subject: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:43 pm

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:42 pm
Posts: 3911
Location: lat 38.9677 lon 77.3366

+1 colclimber
sometimes I still see these guys in baggy shorts, floppy shirt, TT helmet with knees sticking out riding on crowded bike paths working oh so hard on very nice TT bikes but catching more air then grandma on her ballon tired 1950 beach bike. It is amusing to see high tech filter down to casual cyclist (I'm sure some say the same about this old geezer too). Anyway its good to hear some priority on this aero thing. It just one on a long list of issues that we deal with.

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prendrefeu

Post subject: Re: Aerodynamics

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:48 pm

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 6626
Location: Los Angeles

Thanks Matt.

Do we know how many sprint finishes were won on an aero bike vs. a normal one?
Honest questions.

I, too, think that the numbers will go up - but simply as a consequence of percentages of aero bikes in the peloton as a whole, not out of any true superiority. That percentage may increase simply by way of marketing pressures from manufacturers producing 'aero' bikes as they are the latest trend.

And, like it or not, it seems these days more and more that today's novelty becomes tomorrow's necessity... even though it's really unnecessary. As we progress forward with tech the 'leaps' we're making are getting smaller and smaller. Eventually they'll be quite moot, but again out of marketing pressure ( :twisted:

) or just peer pressure that incredibly minute difference will be heralded as much more than it really is, today's novelty becomes tomorrow's necessity.

Also: is this saying that Gilbert is simply head and shoulder above everyone else? :twisted:

or is the Canyon Aeroad that much more superior of a frame design? :twisted:

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