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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Location: North Wales
Sawyer - My Neutron Ultras are the only wheels to ever break on me, but I've ridden nearly exclusively on Factory Built wheels and they've been fine. I've run cheapo Ventos and Shimano R500s through winter, both still perfectly true, and both have sets of bearings that are still smooth, and I can't say that I've gone out of my way to look after them.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:06 pm 
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sawyer wrote:
.....am I the only one who rides factory wheels and simply doesn't experience these failures????...


No, everyone who rides factory wheels will never see this failure with their wheels as no factory wheels use these rims.

Its a non-argument.

You may notice that this is the first time I have posted pics of any material failures of any kind on WWs. I intended to make a point to note and not to show an outrageous display of wheelbuilding futility. Its not very often I come across problems with wheels and I must admit most are with factory built wheels built using cost-cutting materials and methods. But as far as wheelbuilding per se is concerned, a wheel is OK until is stops performing the way it was intended, regardless of components used and who made it.

Some of the cheap attempts at 'comparitive research' on WWs is hilarious.

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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:06 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:39 pm 
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sawyer wrote:
am I the only one who rides factory wheels and simply doesn't experience these failures????


Some things that readily spring to mind for wheels at this price point which may explain this:-

Factory built wheels are repeatable. As a lot of the build is done by machine. Handbuilts are not, as most of the process is manual. So a bad handbuilt will be a lot worse than a bad factory build. BUT by the same token, a good factory build (of the same wheel) will most likely not be as good as the best of handbuilts, as the machine is set up to be economic, quick and allow for all variabilty in rim/spoke/hub tolerances of stiffness/size/material and blah. Whereas the handbuilder is not so restricted by time as the machine, and can individually build the wheel based on what parts they actually get, rather than a nominal/worst limit part. There is *some* adaptation on *some* wheel building machines, but not all, and it's *unlikely* to be as good or as comprehensive as those made by hand.

The other thing is that machine builds are built to meet a 'standard customer' and their requirements, a handbuilt can be built specifically for a single customer, or can be selected to a much higher degree. i.e. spoke counts, types and patterns.

And to continue is a very dull manner, a decent ordinary handbuilt and a decent factory build made out of similar parts and with a similar weight have almost exactly the same chance of failure under the same rider and riding conditions. The designs at this level are such that there is very little variation between different manufacturers/handbuilts.

Its just spares for the factory build might take months to get..........

FWIW, i bought some R550s (?) for my cross bike to replace a 3 year old pair of Ultegra/open pro which i wore the rim out on (only had about 6 hours to source new wheels). The new wheels went out of true the first time i used them, on a moderately forgiving course.
The Open pros handn't been touched since i built them having done three seasons of cross racing, probably why they were worn out :) (and i'm not *that* good a wheelbuilder, just passable.) .

I also watched a mate pop four or five spokes out of the hub of a mavic MTB wheel a few weeks ago. Thats a write off, and not a very clever design.

Of course, a lot of this goes out of the window when you start looking at top end factory wheels, as they are handbuilts with a manufacturers label on them.......


Last edited by mattr on Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Location: Chicago
What do you guys/gals think of DT-Swiss 1.2 rims with DT-Swiss 240 hubs 24 with 20/24 spokes and DT Aerolite Spokes? The total weight is 1738 grams. This is for my wife who weighs 174. Thank you for your input.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:13 pm 
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pharding wrote:
What do you guys/gals think of DT-Swiss 1.2 rims with DT-Swiss 240 hubs 24 with 20/24 spokes and DT Aerolite Spokes? The total weight is 1738 grams. This is for my wife who weighs 174. Thank you for your input.


Luxurious.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:53 am 
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Location: Mornington Peninsula
Some people mentioned Aksiums. These are the only wheels I have ever had spokes break on. Admittedly the 2nd and 3rd spoke breaks were probably due to the wheel now being cactus from the first repair....... but that said I am an average weight 82-84Kg and no other wheel I've owned has caused me the same grief. Ultegra 6600's are going for about 3-350 a pair at the moment so they would be worth looking at as well. Recently had a major off on my trainer with the 6600's - front tyre was ripped off and the wheel is still true. They roll very well and are also quite aero. Just another option to consider :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Location: Canada
but the OP ceramics look soooo sooooooo niceeee


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
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Location: Natovi Landing
Leloby wrote:
sawyer wrote:
.....am I the only one who rides factory wheels and simply doesn't experience these failures????...


No, everyone who rides factory wheels will never see this failure with their wheels as no factory wheels use these rims.

Its a non-argument.

You may notice that this is the first time I have posted pics of any material failures of any kind on WWs. I intended to make a point to note and not to show an outrageous display of wheelbuilding futility. Its not very often I come across problems with wheels and I must admit most are with factory built wheels built using cost-cutting materials and methods. But as far as wheelbuilding per se is concerned, a wheel is OK until is stops performing the way it was intended, regardless of components used and who made it.

Some of the cheap attempts at 'comparitive research' on WWs is hilarious.


:lol: Think you might be interpreting my use of "these" a bit narrowly. By "these failures" I meant "failures such as these".

By the same token, the Open Pro is the very rim whose virtues are extolled by those who favour handbuilt wheels in countless threads on forums across the internet. Your failure is therefore a bit worrying for this school of thought!!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:59 am 
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Location: Aarhus, Denmark
I have tried handbuild wheels with Dura ace hubs and mavic rims, Fulcrum racing 5 and 7, various Shimano wheels and FSA wheels. I like Mavic Aksium the best - only set I have been able to just RIDE year around without ANY service untill I broke through the rims after a couple of years. I now have 2 sets and am about to buy another set...

Around here I can get them for €120,- and it's hard to find anything else in that price range.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:35 pm 
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Location: Canada
I emailed bike wheel warehouse and they didnt bother replying, i guess they dont wanna sell a wheelset lol. Any of you guys know some webshop in Canada?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Posts: 179
Location: Wet coast, Canada
I do not know of any Canadian online custom wheel companies. I have had training wheels built at Excel Sports and shipped to Canada. Their prices are quite reasonable, usually the price of the built wheelset is cheaper than I could source the parts for it in Canada. Right now the prices are especially good as Cdn dollar is strong. The build quality seems good, I have one set with Chorus hubs and Mavic CXP-33 rims that must have over 25000 km on it and I have only had to do a couple of minor spoke adjustments in that time and probably did not even to do them.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:43 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:49 pm
Posts: 1576
Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland
My own experience:
- Cheap rims and hubs built by a great wheelbuilder tend to be problem free. Mine used to wear out because hub sealing isn't that good and water would eat the bearings. Nowadays with even cheap Ambrosio hubs and such like using cartridge bearings it's no big deal to swap them as the hub body isn't ruined like in a loose bearing hub.

- Even expensive components built by a YTS cycle mechanic will cause pain. Rebuilding them yourself and taking time and care over it is needed to get a pair of wheels that stay round. There are some 'wheelbuilders' working at well-known shops in London who should stick to changing bar tape and pumping up tyres.

- Cheap pre-built wheels are so cheap that you couldn't buy decent hubs for the price. Some are really good. My Mavic Cosmos wheels are still true and ride OK after 2 new sets of bearings over the last 5 years. Hoping to wear out the rims soon though as they feel really slack and nasty to ride. As others have posted my £70 My Shimano R500 wheels are really great. Totally bombproof and although heavy nice and snappy to ride. When I did have an issue with the rear hub the local shop replaced it without question within a week. (Hub had been assembled with no grease! - made noises immediately).

What you should buy depends on your bank account.
- If you want cheap, R500s are really nice and easily replaceable. Just pop in some new grease and bearings annually. I ride them on my Parlee in the winter sometimes.
- If you want reliable, a Mavic, DT or Velocity rim with Royce or Phil Wood, White industries, DT240 hubs plus db or bladed spokes would be nice. You can also race on these or use them as nice spare wheels.
- If cost is no problem you shouldn't bother with training wheels.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:55 pm
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Location: UK
sawyer wrote:
Leloby wrote:
sawyer wrote:
.....am I the only one who rides factory wheels and simply doesn't experience these failures????...


No, everyone who rides factory wheels will never see this failure with their wheels as no factory wheels use these rims.

Its a non-argument.

You may notice that this is the first time I have posted pics of any material failures of any kind on WWs. I intended to make a point to note and not to show an outrageous display of wheelbuilding futility. Its not very often I come across problems with wheels and I must admit most are with factory built wheels built using cost-cutting materials and methods. But as far as wheelbuilding per se is concerned, a wheel is OK until is stops performing the way it was intended, regardless of components used and who made it.

Some of the cheap attempts at 'comparitive research' on WWs is hilarious.


:lol: Think you might be interpreting my use of "these" a bit narrowly. By "these failures" I meant "failures such as these".

By the same token, the Open Pro is the very rim whose virtues are extolled by those who favour handbuilt wheels in countless threads on forums across the internet. Your failure is therefore a bit worrying for this school of thought!!


I've never liked the Open Pro, Open 4, Open Sup or Reflex clinchers. You'll find that guys wanting to build their own wheels will use these with varying results - they are easily available across the globe. But the ceramic versions were useful - great braking in the wet and dry - and thats the only reason I ever used them.

In my opinion, Mavic rims went right downhill when they amalgamated with Salomon in the early 90's. They turned their attention to factory wheels and the quality of their single rims suffered.

There are a number of better rims out there, better because they build up more stable in use. And I think you'll find that experienced wheelbuilders will favour them.

You've been reading too many DIY SOS's.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:36 pm 
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Location: Natovi Landing
fair play leloby :D

I only like the CCUs and aksiums of mavic's wheels to be honest and wouldn't touch the open pros anyway.


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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:36 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:15 am 
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Location: Canada
good gawd, you guys know how to confuse the S**T out of me.

ill keep looking for you guys suggestions, this tread is pretty usefull up to date

btw I dont know what DIY SOS means :?


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