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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:07 am 
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andrello wrote:
Why not in the crank arms? Does somebody hold a patent on that concept? That would be the best and most accurate place to take the measurements, yet nobody produces one. Why?


Limited number of designs. The spider allows (in theory anyway) you to put a PM on any crank arm with a removable spider. Moreover, I suspect the arm would need to be aluminum for them to put in the arm.



I am surprised that no one has gone to Asia for manufacturing for something that amounts to a glorified bathroom scale. Perhaps the volume is to low but........... how many would buy an SRM system if they cost $500-$1000? Exactly............

The Asian manufacturing guys are mass-producing electronics that are way more complicated than an SRM or PT.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:35 am 
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As I recall back in the day our good buddy Greg Lemond used a power meter that worked on the pedals but just for testing in the lab if I remember

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:37 am 
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I heard something somewhere about shimano considering a power meter, I'm sure they could get a solid unit that retailed under $1k. I would buy one


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:01 am 
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TheBooger wrote:
I heard something somewhere about shimano considering a power meter, I'm sure they could get a solid unit that retailed under $1k. I would buy one


I guaran-damn-tee you it'll be propitiary and will most likely work with a special headunit that is incorporated into the 7900 computer and drivetrain. Moreover, the shifters and the crank are $700 each.................... there is no way it'll be $1000. Additionally, it'll likely rely on more than one part of the drivetrain and thus be of limited use to anyone who does not use Shimano.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:30 am 
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STARNUT wrote:
andrello wrote:
I am surprised that no one has gone to Asia for manufacturing for something that amounts to a glorified bathroom scale. Perhaps the volume is to low but........... how many would buy an SRM system if they cost $500-$1000? Exactly............

The Asian manufacturing guys are mass-producing electronics that are way more complicated than an SRM or PT.

Starnut

This is an interesting premise. Without taking the thread too off-topic, would you care to expound on your remarks, specifically the "glorified bathroom scale" comment?

My particular concern with the meters I've seen is that regardless of the strain gauges that measure accuracy to within a few percentage points, it only does so for one leg.

Imagine a cyclist trying to work out deficiencies and leg muscle imbalances without the proper information in terms of what each individual leg is doing.

Also, I see systems that are not exactly user-friendly. I'd like to see s system that is compatible regardless of what type of crank and bottom bracket a rider is using.

Also, where would the strain gauges need to be placed to get as accurate power readings as possible if you were to build one from scratch?(Yes, I don't know much about how these things work as you can tell, but the idea of utilizing this type of data is intriguing.)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:53 am 
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sure.

PMs work with starin gauges and bathroom scale work with strain gauges.

I have a bathroom scale the gets down to .01 lbs and it cost me $70. I have a PM that measures down to the .01 ft/lbs and cost $4000. One was manufactured in Germany and one was manufactured in Asia. Granted, the PM does velocity as well but so does a $40 cycling computer.

My point was/is....... I think a significant amount of the cost of a PM is (obviously) not technology, materials, or engineering.............. it's labor. I dare someone to tell me it's the cost of the programing and software :evil:.

My iPod has umpteen more MB memory than my SRM headunit and cost .02 as much. A Garmin can (all be it not as effective) be used as a headunit for ~$300 while a PCVI costs $1100 is you buy the HRM strap and the Pod. By all intents and purposes, an iPhone may soon be able to serve as a headunit.


Why do PMs cost so much?



Because they can and people will pay for it.


I seen the one legged argument and until you can prove it you blowing smoke. In fact, there is a well know power coach, with one leg, that race and trains with a PM. Because the crank is a system and energy is transmited via the spindle................. it's a single system.

Accuracy is not the problem.


Additionally, the muscle "imbalance" argument is trite at best. Recently studies from the UT and UUtah have determied that imbalances are caused more by biomechanics and not actual muscle composition or useage. If the latter were true we'd walk in circles and not beable to control it. Moreover, trying to correct a slight muscle imbalance is a futile exercise as you'd need to balance it in every part of your life that involves useing that muscle group. Further, this does nothing to express imbalances in other sports: XC skiing; speed skating (left turn only); NASCAR (left turn only with no power steering); Golf; football/soccer; etc. I have yet to find out why cycling is some much different than any other sport?

Moreover, what does a imbalance have to do with where a PM is manufactured? A PM is not even the best tool to do determine an imbalance.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:10 am 
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Francois_Viviers wrote:
In cycling magazine today, aparantly new powermeter. This time a pedal based powermeter, one on both sides, so measures bith legs independantly. Also supposed to be more affordable. Does annyone have any more info on this?

Please do share


http://www.brimbrothers.com


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:39 am 
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STARNUT wrote:
My point was/is....... I think a significant amount of the cost of a PM is (obviously) not technology, materials, or engineering.............. it's labor. I dare someone to tell me it's the cost of the programing and software :evil:.


Do it!

It think the biggest issue is that the market is small... just not enough potential sales to amortize the costs over. You might ask why any of these bike parts are so expensive. You can buy a fully functional bike at Walmart for less than a set of derailleur pulleys. Or look at tires... I pay as much for bicycle tires that last 2k miles (or less) as I do for car tires that last 50k miles.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:55 am 
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J-Nice wrote:
My particular concern with the meters I've seen is that regardless of the strain gauges that measure accuracy to within a few percentage points, it only does so for one leg.


The only one that did that was the Ergomo.

Quote:
Also, I see systems that are not exactly user-friendly. I'd like to see s system that is compatible regardless of what type of crank and bottom bracket a rider is using.


Powertap or iBike.

So I guess you are ok with the PM limiting your pedal choices to one? With any of these systems that measure torque it is obviously more efficient for the measuring device to replace parts on the bike. IMO this is not "user unfriendly".

BTW, all of the crank or hub based PMs could easily track each leg separately by tracking the crank position. If they aren't doing it, it is because they don't consider it important.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:01 am 
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andrello wrote:
Why not in the crank arms? Does somebody hold a patent on that concept? That would be the best and most accurate place to take the measurements, yet nobody produces one. Why?


Sounds difficult to me. The arms are subjected to all sorts of bending and twisting loads. You'd have to make assumptions about the loads being applied and also track the arm position.

The beauty of crank and hub systems is that the driving torque is being applied in a single plane in those locations, so it is easier and more accurate.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:46 am 
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Brim Brothers wrote:
How much will it cost?
We don’t know yet, but it will be competitive with existing systems.


That sounds like it's going to be PowerTap/SRM money then?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:26 am 
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STARNUT wrote:
I seen the one legged argument and until you can prove it you blowing smoke.

You seem to have misunderstood. I said I wasn't sure how these contraptions work, so anything I point out was for the sake of discussion, not argument.

STARNUT wrote:
Additionally, the muscle "imbalance" argument is trite at best.

Again, you are taking a tone that is a bit out of line given my intent. Besides, my personal muscle imbalance issues are the result of a couple of accidents and resulting surgical procedures. Structurally my legs are the same length. Muscle atrophy is known to take place after surgery in some instances.

STARNUT wrote:
Moreover, what does a imbalance have to do with where a PM is manufactured?

When did I ever make this connection? I took the time to ask a few questions that may have been a bit off-topic but still pertinent.

Regardless, thanks for the reply. Very informative.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:40 pm 
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It does seem that market forces are now at work and I am hopeful that the price of power meters will fall into the £500 range in a year or two:

1. Increased competition with multiple devices being introduced into the market giving price / reliability / feature competition and generally driving innovation
2. Increased uptake allowing manufacturers to defer high fixed costs over a larger number of users
3. Introduction of common standards (ANT+) to allow modular use of components, creating an open system with choice of measurement, readout, and software modules, e.g. use a Powertap computer (I know that doesn't work yet) with a Qranq crank and Trainingpeaks software.
4. Patents coming to an end - IIRC some of SRM's patents are about to run out, which would lead to the possibility of generic 'Cateye' SRMs.

Currently my concern is that the startup companies building power meters do not have the business savvy or willing to get big. The chap that built a highly technical prototype in his shed is not the right chap to productionise on a big scale and take it to the masses. It seems a bit that the people who develop their baby want to hold on to it rather than using licencing agreements to get it out there to the masses. Maybe I'm wrong here but it looks that way to me.

I for one would love to see Shimano using SRM's patents to churn out identical-looking Dura Ace cranksets but with strain gauges and electronics integrated to a readout on a Flight deck computer. Similarly Campag and SRAM... In 2-3 years there would be an Ultegra version...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:40 pm 
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Looks like they will use piezoelectric sensors from the Danish company Noliac Ceramics: http://www.noliac.com/Default.aspx?ID=7901
Quote:
Piezoceramics in cyclist power meter

Brim Brothers in Ireland is developing the next generation of cyclist power meter that has all the benefits of the existing devices but none of the drawbacks. To Brim Brothers' satisfaction, Noliac Ceramics has provided piezoceramic components for development of the power meter.

Barry Redmond is one of the founders of BrimBrothers:

- The cyclist power meter will be easy to use, easy to fit, and easy to move between bikes. It will not require any bike part to be replaced, so that it will work on any type of bike.

Image

No restrictions for the cyclist
- For competitive cyclists power meters are becoming more and more important. All the training and coaching information is now based on power measurements, and articles about power meters and how to use them are becoming more frequent in cycling magazines, Barry continues.

- The aim for Brim Brothers is to develop a revolutionary new power meter which doesn’t need anything fitted to the bike. So the cyclist can have power measurement on any bike, and can use their own choice of equipment such as wheels, cranks and bottom brackets.

Most responsive & best price
Barry Redmond is satisfied with the service provided by Noliac Ceramics:
- We chose Noliac because of their very fast response to my requests. Their price and the specifications for the material were also important.

- Of the eight companies that I asked for quotes, Noliac was the most responsive, and had the best price, Barry adds up.

More about BrimBrothers


They don't specify which type of piezoceramics they will use from Noliac. But it's probably either piezoelectric force sensors and/or piezoelectric accelerometers: http://www.noliac.com/Default.aspx?ID=7778
Quote:
Piezo sensors
Custom product

Noliac Group offers customized piezoelectric vibration sensors, which are intended for general use in systems for vibration measurements and machine condition monitoring.

The sensors feature low sensitivity to temperature and magnetic field fluctuations, low transverse sensitivity, high resonance frequency and high stability.

Custom products
    * Piezoelectric accelerometers and vibration sensors
    * Ultrasonic sensors
    * Piezoelectric force sensors
    * Design, development and production of piezoelectric devices and subsystems
    * Manufacturing of piezo sensors according to customer specification
Application examples
    * Vibration and shock measurement
    * Pressure and force measurement
    * Flow and distance measurement
    * Sound and noise measurement


Technology: Axial and bending piezoelectric sensors: http://www.noliac.com/Default.aspx?ID=15

http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/hbm/hbm172.html
Quote:
Strain-gage force transducers offer increased linearity and are best used for static measurement tasks while piezoelectric force transducers are characterized by their compact design and are especially suited for installation where limited space is available.


Last edited by 2 wheels on Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:40 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:05 pm 
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Fortunately new powermeter companies have a great track record. Oh wait. . .

:(

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