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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:11 pm 
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark, Earth, Universe
As I said earlier I'm happy with my michelin tubes. I have been tempted to try Vredersteins but I have heard rumors they should be fragile and can explode under heavy breaking in mountains. What are your experiences dear Vredestein users?


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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:11 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:20 pm 
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Location: The Alps
It's interesting, some like Michelins, some like Vredestein.

Personally, I like the Michelins. They bought out Air-B a few years ago and improved their tube making. As said above, try to get the 700x18 version, it fits better. Often the 700x23 is too big, you have to fit it almost without air to stop it bunching up. But it is comfortable.

I've tried to use the Vredestein, the weight saving was better. But they kept blowing up. I never punctured, the wheels would blow up at random times, at 3 in the morning, on a roofrack on the way to a race and so on. Just didn't work for me. The latex looked thinner, more fragile. If anything, the Michelin's look too thick but that explains the 85g weight.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Thanks for the replies. I think I will try the Vredesteins.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:39 pm 
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Zak wrote:
As I said earlier I'm happy with my michelin tubes. I have been tempted to try Vredersteins but I have heard rumors they should be fragile and can explode under heavy breaking in mountains. What are your experiences dear Vredestein users?


Hi,

Combine clinchers, latex, mountains, heavy breaking and no latex inner tube will last too long. Especially not so if it's already hot outside.

@Danton: Unfortunately for us, Michelin bought AIR-B but didn't do anything with it. It would be nice if at least Michelin or someone else for that matter, would market some butylized latex inner tubes as that's what the AIR-B were at the time.
Other than Gommitalia (for their own tubulars) I can't think of anyone offering a similar product.

For those that have never used natural latex (i.e. non-pigmented) inner tubes such as Vredestein's I can understand your scepsis but when you compare them you soon realize that the Michelins aren't all that great.
Unfortunately we're stuck with whatever we can find....

Ciao, :wink:

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Last edited by fdegrove on Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:17 pm 
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Location: Kent: UK
Danton wrote:
I've tried to use the Vredestein, the weight saving was better. But they kept blowing up. I never punctured, the wheels would blow up at random times, at 3 in the morning, on a roofrack on the way to a race and so on. Just didn't work for me.


This was exactly my first experience of Vreds. They just blew up for no reason it seemed. I replaced with butyl tubes and everything was fine again though, so I assumed the vred tubes were just crap. After using up my 5th Vred (I bought 12 in bulk) I began to notice every single hole was on the rim side. Turned out the plastic rim tape has the smallest of hairline splits over the spoke holes in the rim and the thin latext tube was blowing out through this smallest of imperfections that didn't affect butyl tubes. Replaced with new plastic rim tape and a layer of velox over that and problem solved and haven't used a butyl tube since on those same wheels on my training bike which deals with the worst of Britains gritty roads each winter.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:40 pm 
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hockinsk wrote:
Problem with the Michelin though is that it's not very good at high 120+ PSI!


That is my impression. I pump my clinchers (Eurus) with Michelin Latex up to 120 psi, and they fail at the juncture of the rubber/latex at the valve stem base. I don't think it is a puncture from roughness from inside of the wheel, but rather a weakness in the juncture that cannot withstand the 120 psi pressure.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:31 pm 
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Location: Leiden, NETHERLANDS
I always ride my rear wheel at over 120psi I ride it at 8,5 up to 9bar (= 123,3psi up to 130,5psi). My front wheel is 7,5 up to 8 bar (=108,8 up to psi 116,0). That is on dry roads. I am >90kg that's why i need high pressure.

Exceeding tyre pressure of approximately 8,5 to 9bar (= 123,3psi up to 130,5psi) is pointless for most riders/racers, because it will be ending up I higher rolling resistance. Most people can do with tyre pressure under these high values. Further Michelin advises says that the Latex A1 inner tube is o.k. up to 8,5 bar not more!

I never experienced a problem with the valve except in one special case (read further).

Though I have to admit that there where the valve and the latex tube are connected is always a weak point. With sewn up tubulars that is a non issue. That is also why you should use a piece of Velox tape around the valve hole in the rim.

I just had it once that the Michelin Latex inner tube was leaking air at the connection. That was a front tyre accidentally pumped up to 9,5-10bar on a hot day. Before my intended climbing of Mt Ventoux that day. I took it out to replace and I could tear the valve out of the tube very easy. This tube I used the whole winter before and there was some corrosion around the valve stem where it entered the tube. The tube was in perfect condition so I cleaned the valve stem and valve put a bit glue on the valve stem put the stem back and re-used the inner tube for the rest of that summer in another wheel set until now! It is still in use and the only blue valve stem I got left.

But that was two years ago august 2006 (one of the bad production badge that had the blue valve stem).

But all latex inner tube manufacturers are aware of this weak point. Challenge even mentions this in their leaflet. Just take extra care when mounting your latex inner tubes and they will be flawless performers for long time.

@Fdegrove,
I have to disagree here. I ride lot of mountains and like fast descents/downhill’s. Though I don’t brake much (I am ex racer/track racer for years so more steering then braking). I never experienced the short life of latex inner tubes as you do describe. But I am a lucky guy since I don’t use my brakes much my rims do not heat up often.

To be secure you could opt to ride a pair of your light climbing wheels on which you put Velox tape over your Veloplugs. If the rim heats up the Latex inner tube will be shielded from the hot rim by the Velox tape. For your rear wheel that would not be necessary. Except if you are a guy that is using the brakes a lot.

Further I got the same experience as Danton has. Vredestein Latex blew up on me without reason. It happened randomly. Even when I did not have the Vredesteins on high pressure.

For me Michelin A1 latex is perfect but I like the Challenge beter because of thier seamles construction.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:31 pm 
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark, Earth, Universe
And now my fellow latex-loving friends I have this question:

Since I switched to latex tubes I have kept my habit og throwing out the tube when I have a puncture. But this is getting kind of expensive, so do you have any experiences with pathcing latex tubes?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:22 pm 
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Location: Reading, UK
Zak wrote:
And now my fellow latex-loving friends I have this question:

Since I switched to latex tubes I have kept my habit og throwing out the tube when I have a puncture. But this is getting kind of expensive, so do you have any experiences with pathcing latex tubes?


Indeed yes. My experience is that they patch easily and permanently. Latex has a real affinity for rubber solution.

I tried Vittoria latex a few years ago and found them very fragile. Currently I have a couple of pair green Michelins on the go and am finding them reliable and long-lived. And... they hold pressure surprisingly well. Did Michelin learn something from Air-B after all?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:48 pm 
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Hi,

Quote:
@Fdegrove,
I have to disagree here. I ride lot of mountains and like fast descents/downhill’s. Though I don’t brake much (I am ex racer/track racer for years so more steering then braking). I never experienced the short life of latex inner tubes as you do describe. But I am a lucky guy since I don’t use my brakes much my rims do not heat up often.

To be secure you could opt to ride a pair of your light climbing wheels on which you put Velox tape over your Veloplugs. If the rim heats up the Latex inner tube will be shielded from the hot rim by the Velox tape. For your rear wheel that would not be necessary. Except if you are a guy that is using the brakes a lot.

Further I got the same experience as Danton has. Vredestein Latex blew up on me without reason. It happened randomly. Even when I did not have the Vredesteins on high pressure.


Hi,

@Amadeus:

I think you're confusing a few things and misreading what I said in prior posts.
Other than that, if you think some cloth rimtape is going to insulate the latex inner tube from the heat of sidewalls of your rims, think again. It won't change one iot.
Think also about the fact that quite a few modern lightweight rims have thinly machined braking surfaces, American Classic being just one good example.
In that context I'd rather NOT recommend the use of latex inner tubes when planning on descending at high speed during a hot Summer day....

Of all the latex inner tubes the pigmented (coloured) ones are the more britlle ones. Pull one hard enough and it will rip. Pull a natural latex one and you'll find it will take alot more stretching before it finally slaps you in the face.
As for them being short lived, that's not really what I said but compared to natural latex they're notably shorter lived and far more prone to being pinched between the rim and the tyre when first mounted. It's no coincidence Michelin recommends the use of talcum powder to ease the mounting procedure.
Natural latex is far more slippery and doesn't need this.

As for the Michelins holding air longer than other latex inner tubes, some do and some are actually quite worse. No idea why.

Patching latex inner tubes is quite easy. Provided you have the right rubber cement you can even cut them in half and reglue them and they'll still work just fine.
Do use latex patches (cut from shot old ones) and round the edges for best results.
By using latex patches you don't intruduce foreign material with different elasticity. Butyl does work however if you must.
Don't ever scrape the punctured aera with a rasp or sandpaper, just clean it with some rubbing alcohol and you'll be fine.

Ciao, :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:37 am 
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Location: Worcester, UK
hockinsk wrote:
I Might try some veloplugs though as the velox tape does begin to rot after a few months and eventually splits over the spoke holes commuting to work on wet British roads - This is the main reason why I use a Micelin plastic rim tape under the velox because it doesn't rot and offers a second line of defence! Problem with the Michelin though is that it's not very good at high 120+ PSI!

I'd recommend trying Conti Supersonic rim tape http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=A1354 - works much the same as Velox, but is plastic so doesn't rot. I know you don't care, but it's also a lot lighter, and also thinner which helps with fitting difficult tyres (though if you're using 2 layers I guess you don't have a problem with that either).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:51 am 
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Thanks for the tip chris. I always assumed the Conti stuff was cotton like the Velox, so never tried it. I'll give it a try, thanks.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Thread is a bit old, but I'm about to make the switch from Michelin butyl tubes to latex tubes and this came up when I searched.

I can source Vittoria latex or Michelin latex ones pretty easily.

Lots of opinions, but currently does anyone like one more than the other?

Can get the Michelin in 40 mm or 60mm, 40 a tad short, 60 a tad long for my rims.

The Vittoria are in 51mm which is perfect. They have removable cores, not sure I need those, don't have any super deep rims or tubeless setups on my road bikes.

Wondering which to go with, or is it just a toss up? Would rather not deal with lots of flats, of course!

Will be run with Conti GP 4000s and some decent (but cheap) wheels. Nothing super, so weight is not a huge issue (I know, I know...I'm in the WW forum:))

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Oh...and what is the best way to try and avoid punctures due to valve hole burrs...file the hole a bit?

Or, just put some velox or electrical tape over it? I already have velox on these wheels. You guys mean the inside of the rim, right? I don't need to tape the valve hole on the outside of the rim, do I?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:05 pm 
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Been using Vredestein over velopugs and had failure at the junction after 6 months.
Used Challenge before - they loose air fast. Inflate brand new latex innertube a little
and if you see irregularities, like one portion is larger, those are thinner places and
will not hold air well. Choose the most consistent innertube, use a lot of real talcum
powder (most of baby powders is @$#% corn starch now). Use packing tape to cover
anything inside the rim that will chew up latex and you will be rewarded with nice feel
that butyl will never give you.


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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:05 pm 


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