Mayo vs. Landis

[NS]

I think legs 11 may have been refering to the 7 US cycling medals at the 1984 Olympics.

I think we all know that cheating was widespread on both sides of the iron curtain back in the day though.

[geraldatwork]

A friend of mine is 6'5", 300+, plays D1 football. O-line. Used to pick me up and throw me back and forth with another guy on the track team to warm up for the discus and/or shot.

His parents are each over 6'2", dad is 270+. All genetics.

So he is 270 lbs (like his father) as his base plus 30 pounds due to steroids to make 300+ so he can be competitive in D1 football.

That, or he's been that size since he was a freshman in high school?

Apparently you don't know much about genetics. Plenty of people are bigger than their parents.

I have two other friends, brothers, 6'0". Parents both 5'8".

So he is 300 lbs going in. Curious how big he will be coming out.

[OJ]

That, or he's been that size since he was a freshman in high school?

Apparently you don't know much about genetics. Plenty of people are bigger than their parents.

I have two other friends, brothers, 6'0". Parents both 5'8".

So he was one big boy at the age of 16? Now I'm just waiting to hear that his fat % was/is under 20.

Are you trying to tell us that because of your giant friend there isn't doping problem in North American high schools? Even those high school kids who don't play football take steroids.

[RollinOn27s]

You're out of your mind if you think every D1 athlete is on the juice.

[geraldatwork]

You're out of your mind if you think every D1 athlete is on the juice.

Of course nobody knows for sure but just judging on how much is going on even on the HS level I would guess if not a majority then something real close to it on the D1 level. I'm not necessarily talking about all of the sports but certainly football, baseball, we've seen the track people time and time again. It is a real problem. Once your opponent is doing it to be competitive you kind of have to do it yourself unfortunately. Maybe your friend isn't one of those but he may be the exception.

[theremery]

the enormity of how tragic a situation that is for young american football players.........simply sickening : (
I'm Glad I live here. It's not as super clean as the tourism board would have you believe....but I don't think it's quite at US levels either.
The kids generally play sport for fun and to compete...and do so clean. Sadly, when they go overseas, they show that temptation applies to people of all origins, cultures and backgrounds. How we love to watch people win ....aye!

[DocRay]

Dick Butkus was an NFL player who almost died due to long term complications from steroid abuse. He is now lecturing about the rampant use of steroids in the US. I know in many cities is by far the largest volume illicit drug.

http://www.scribemedia.org/2006/12/01/d ... -steroids/

some points:

The average life expectancy of an NFL player is 55.
The #1 abusing group is teenage girls 14-19.
Because most are doing it, it is not regarded as cheating.

This means we can expect unusual health problems to start appearing in star cyclists from the 90-00s.

Butkus is now a pariah with the NFL and in the US. Telling people what they don't want to hear is a bad idea.

[RollinOn27s]

Dick Butkus was an NFL player who almost died due to long term complications from steroid abuse. He is now lecturing about the rampant use of steroids in the US. I know in many cities is by far the largest volume illicit drug.

http://www.scribemedia.org/2006/12/01/d ... -steroids/

some points:

The average life expectancy of an NFL player is 55.
The #1 abusing group is teenage girls 14-19.
Because most are doing it, it is not regarded as cheating.

This means we can expect unusual health problems to start appearing in star cyclists from the 90-00s.

Butkus is now a pariah with the NFL and in the US. Telling people what they don't want to hear is a bad idea.

Doc,

I agree that Butkus catches some flak for doing what he does, and I applaud him for it. But, I'm not quite believing the statement of the 14-19 year old girls being the number one user group. Really, 90% of those girls don't even know what EPO is, and those that do don't know what it does.

I'm only four and a half years removed from HS track, CC, soccer and wrestling, and while people might have been on the juice, there were very few people that I ever questioned regarding their results. A kid or two in wrestling, and a sprinter on the track, but the kids who beat me in soccer or CC were just naturally talented, harder working kids.

[ras11]

...the UCI is supposed to be protecting the innocent...

Really? I'd like to know what the UCI's bylaws say.

[GrahamB]

Apparently you don't know much about genetics. Plenty of people are bigger than their parents.

I know a fair bit. Being bigger than your parents is less likely if they are themselves far bigger than average: see "regression to the mean".

However, it may well be that this particular example of a 300lb footballer is due to genetics. Freaks happen. However when *averages* go up dramatically you have to ask: do you suppose the human genome is changing, or the environment?

[DocRay]

But, I'm not quite believing the statement of the 14-19 year old girls being the number one user group. Really, 90% of those girls don't even know what EPO is, and those that do don't know what it does.

Butkus' comments are not about EPO, but anabolic steroids. Teenage girls on cheerleading squads use them to firm up and look better. This is much more rampant in high school football than ever, one only needs to look at average weight of a NFLer over the years -either there has been some chemical intervention, or human evolution has taken a huge leap.

There is not much point to EPO in many US teams sports, as play activity in football or hockey now rarely exceeds 45 seconds at a time. Steroids give muscle bulk and strength for real advantages here. It may also explain a lot of the violent rages in hockey.

[G man]

Pez, you say you have a lot of faith in athletes that blow hot and cold. Why exactly? I personally find "amazing" performances out of nowhere, like Vino's time trial in the TDF are far more suspicious than consistent performances. I think the American perspective of the testing procedures in that lab. is biassed by Lance constantly bad mouthing them for his own reasons. I find riders protesting their innocence ad nauseum tedious and laughable on many occasions. How about nice guy Tyler's defence arguement about his possible unkown dead twin, who's blood could have accounted for the abnormal test? Do they think we're stupid? They lose all credibility by all the lying. Why can they not be men and admit their mistakes? I don't know every detail of the testing procedure in Floyd's case, but if he told Le Mond he'd taken steroids, I personally believe Le Mond's word over Landis'. Who believes Landis drank Jack Daniels and beer the night before his amazing solo performance in the mountains, as his team claimed straight after the positive was announced. That was to do with testosterone ratios, which alcohol can apparently effect. When it was announced he also tested positive for synthetic testosterone, his legal team attacked the lab, and they probably wished they'd never mentioned the Jack Daniels and beer! I'm not saying that American riders dope more than the european riders, but they certainly know how to use lawyers. They're also good at fund raising to pay for their legal teams. If I had given any money to the Floyd Fairness Fund I would want it back. Are they angry because they are innocent, or because they got caught? I accept that there is a possibility of false positive tests, and that it would be a travesty if it occurred. I don't think Landis was a false positive. He failed a test, and has now had all the evidence pored over in minute detail, and was still found guilty of doping. My opinion is he doped. I'm sick of all the lies. The sooner he admits any previous misdemeanors the better for everyone.
G man

[RollinOn27s]

Pez, you say you have a lot of faith in athletes that blow hot and cold. Why exactly? I personally find "amazing" performances out of nowhere, like Vino's time trial in the TDF are far more suspicious than consistent performances. I think the American perspective of the testing procedures in that lab. is biassed by Lance constantly bad mouthing them for his own reasons. I find riders protesting their innocence ad nauseum tedious and laughable on many occasions. How about nice guy Tyler's defence arguement about his possible unkown dead twin, who's blood could have accounted for the abnormal test? Do they think we're stupid? They lose all credibility by all the lying. Why can they not be men and admit their mistakes? I don't know every detail of the testing procedure in Floyd's case, but if he told Le Mond he'd taken steroids, I personally believe Le Mond's word over Landis'. Who believes Landis drank Jack Daniels and beer the night before his amazing solo performance in the mountains, as his team claimed straight after the positive was announced. That was to do with testosterone ratios, which alcohol can apparently effect. When it was announced he also tested positive for synthetic testosterone, his legal team attacked the lab, and they probably wished they'd never mentioned the Jack Daniels and beer! I'm not saying that American riders dope more than the european riders, but they certainly know how to use lawyers. They're also good at fund raising to pay for their legal teams. If I had given any money to the Floyd Fairness Fund I would want it back. Are they angry because they are innocent, or because they got caught? I accept that there is a possibility of false positive tests, and that it would be a travesty if it occurred. I don't think Landis was a false positive. He failed a test, and has now had all the evidence pored over in minute detail, and was still found guilty of doping. My opinion is he doped. I'm sick of all the lies. The sooner he admits any previous misdemeanors the better for everyone.
G man

I'm an American. I believe that something is amiss at the Chatenay-whatever lab. The fact that they keep on making mistakes, and that the UCI wants to re-test everything THERE is just odd.

I also think that Tyler was a done deal, guilty, case closed. Floyd's case still perplexes me; more than likely guilty but it's not all working out. Lance, I'd rather not get into that. Not my hero, never has been, never will be.

Mayo, guilty or not (as in the actual crime, not the verdict) has a card to play with CAS if and when it comes to that. When a head official of an organization says, more or less, "We didn't get the result we wanted, so we're going to re-test the sample", that doesn't look very good on their part.

[CaptainWilier]

This when technically the average height in the US is declining for the first time.

This is due to the 25 million (or so) mexicans who are not here legally. A joke........about the height.

[GrahamB]

I'm an American. I believe that something is amiss at the Chatenay-whatever lab. The fact that they keep on making mistakes, and that the UCI wants to re-test everything THERE is just odd.

All labs make mistakes. Sorry to break this news, but I've done a fair amount of work with diagnostic medical labs, certified by this, that & the other... and from time to time they make mistakes. Some more than others.

One thing to consider is that Chatenay-Malabry has been subject to enormous scrutiny... so the fact that a lot of its mistakes have been reported does not necessarily mean it makes more mistakes than other labs, just that we hear about them.

Secondly, my impression is that many of the mistakes have been procedural, rather than technical. Ie they leaked info etc etc. Similarly I have the impression that Landis's defense has been that they didn't play fair when they caught him, rather than that the results were wrong and he was innocent.

Following from the above, there is the "devil you know" argument. The Chatanay-Malabry lab may not have a perfect record (and I'd argue that no lab can), but the UCI knows what their protocols are, how they are used, what their false-positive & false negative rates are at different detection thresholds. This is highlighted by the distorted reporting of the Mayo case, where we were first told that the Gent lab had obtained a negative result... when in fact they had an inconclusive result. If a lab doesn't have a suitably high standard, it's more likely to produce inconclusives. This is especially true since dopers, obviously, are trying to avoid detection. So they're going to try to use doses that just sneak under the level that can be called an unequivocal positive.

My personal perspective is that it's stupid to go back and start taking away yellow jerseys from 10 years back. If 80-100% of the field were doping, it doesn't make much sense to just pick off the guy who won. If Armstrong was found to have been doping, it wouldn't make much sense to give some of his jerseys to Ullrich... It's like writing off Jefferson as a president because he kept slaves.

However if you get caught during or shortly after the event, in such blatant circumstances (breaking the field after bonking the previous day), then you are a) bringing the sport into disrepute; b) an idiot.

How many people here really believe Landis didn't dope, rather than having some issue about "fairness" in the way he was caught?