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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:35 pm 
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King Weel wrote:
(Quote Permanentjaun (senior member)): "A runner takes an average of 5,000 strides in a marathon. ..."


Not to mention that's some really long strides at 27.687 feet (7.991475 meters) per "stride".


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:43 pm 
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I've been riding 32 spoke Open Pros for many years. This spring I bought Reynolds Alta Races and the difference was very noticeable. Sure there are other factors than weight but there are other factors in all the bike components...it's not only about weight. Of course for some weight is everything but that group doesn't represent the majority.

I can tell one pound difference in wheels by riding a bike and I'm not a HC weenie...not even close. Two pound difference in wheels/tires/tubes is huge and you will notice the difference.

For me it's much easier to understand tech-freaks and weight weenies etc. than some brand lovers.

EDIT: I think lightest is not the best but best stuff is often very close to lightest in weight.

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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:43 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:48 pm 
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OJ wrote:
I've been riding 32 spoke Open Pros for many years. This spring I bought Reynolds Alta Races and the difference was very noticeable. Sure there are other factors than weight but there are other factors in all the bike components...it's not only about weight. Of course for some weight is everything but that group doesn't represent the majority.

I can tell one pound difference in wheels by riding a bike and I'm not a HC weenie...not even close. Two pound difference in wheels/tires/tubes is huge and you will notice the difference.

For me it's much easier to understand tech-freaks and weight weenies etc. than some brand lovers.

EDIT: I think lightest is not the best but best stuff is often very close to lightest in weight.


Placebo. Science and testing does not back your claim. Incrementally better -- yes. "Huge" difference -- not.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:50 pm 
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Quote:
Also hate the misconceptions that light parts are always fragile and expensive.


Well most light parts are fragile...and expensive is a relative term. Many "kids" on the bike forums don't have a lot money to throw around. So $400 for a complete bike is a chunk of change. Since WW has a more finacially established population $400 for a pair of wheels is rather cheap when you figure it in a $5000 bike.

Here is the bottom line. The people that have the money to spend and get the lightest parts like to do that because they can afford it (in most cases) and it's something they like to do and have. In most cases it has nothing to do with how well they ride, how strong or weak they are, if they are racing in a bike club, or going on a Sunday ride.

With that said I personally don't mind beating up on people (figuratively speaking) with expensive or inexpensive bike on the road. It's all about the engine and how you tune it.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:02 pm 
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John979 wrote:
Placebo. Science and testing does not back your claim. Incrementally better -- yes. "Huge" difference -- not.

You know what...I don't even care. Maybe the difference between Open Pro and Alta Race is all in my head but so what? If I feel better on the bike it's good and I'm willing to pay for it. If I feel good on the bike I ride more and/or go faster.

I must admit that I got satisfaction when I won MTB provincials clocking fastest lap times riding my friend's heavy and rigid winter bike. Not a big race by any means but going faster than guys on their 5000-8000$ bikes kind of felt good.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:27 pm 
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stella-azzurra wrote:
Quote:
Also hate the misconceptions that light parts are always fragile and expensive.


Well most light parts are fragile...and expensive is a relative term. Many "kids" on the bike forums don't have a lot money to throw around. So $400 for a complete bike is a chunk of change. Since WW has a more finacially established population $400 for a pair of wheels is rather cheap when you figure it in a $5000 bike.

Here is the bottom line. The people that have the money to spend and get the lightest parts like to do that because they can afford it (in most cases) and it's something they like to do and have. In most cases it has nothing to do with how well they ride, how strong or weak they are, if they are racing in a bike club, or going on a Sunday ride.

With that said I personally don't mind beating up on people (figuratively speaking) with expensive or inexpensive bike on the road. It's all about the engine and how you tune it.


Well there uber light weight parts that are expensive and sometimes fragile. For instance the Lightweight wheels but there are also parts that are affordable but are also very light like the Ritchey 4axis stem, KCNC post, Mike Garcia wheels. Personally of the light parts I bought, none of them feel fragile to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:35 pm 
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Location: Flat, humid, banjo's in the distance.
Possible placebo, but I gain between 1.4 to 1.6 mph to my average speed, at the same perceived level of effort, when I switch from my Kyserium SL's to my Zipp 404's. That has been repeatable and consistent. Throwing out "bad days" and "good days" of physical performance.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:35 pm 
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stella-azzurra wrote:
Since WW has a more finacially established population...


WW has a fair amount of competition riders, reviewers, people working in the bike industry and shop owners. Those can all get the nice stuff fast without being very rich. And WW also has more than one (like me) who doesn't have one single posh bike or one single WW bike in their (small) stable. We all ride our hourses, though.

And remember, expensive stuff has better value on the second hand market. A used alu frame won't be worth anything after 5 years, but a used titanium frame will be much sought for at a good price.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:38 pm 
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OK group hug. I ride what I like and can afford. If I can afford light throwaway parts don't throw rocks at me especially if I'm happy. It doesn't matter if I climb better and ride faster if I'm satisfied with my bike. Everyone here plays with light and as time passes so does what they ride and find acceptable. I want light, functional and dependable. Like many my ww bike has gone from 12.76 lbs to 13.38 lbs. Why? Because I wanted a good light, functional daily rider and the weight I put back on made my bike more efficient.

OK one more hug.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:11 pm 
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Well I'd trade fit/efficiency for weight any day if it had to come to that. Except when it comes to wimmin.

:shiftyeyes:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:04 pm 
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RoadKill wrote:
Possible placebo, but I gain between 1.4 to 1.6 mph to my average speed, at the same perceived level of effort, when I switch from my Kyserium SL's to my Zipp 404's. That has been repeatable and consistent. Throwing out "bad days" and "good days" of physical performance.


Based on Zipp's own data, I'd have to say that's entirely placebo. That's a pretty large increase in speed, and I mean very disproportionate, given the amount of power you'd save at the same speed, between wheelsets. Applying that power saved would not net you that sort of speed increase.

A ride with a power meter will explain things better than I ever could, though.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:13 pm 
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RoadKill wrote:
Possible placebo, but I gain between 1.4 to 1.6 mph to my average speed, at the same perceived level of effort, when I switch from my Kyserium SL's to my Zipp 404's. That has been repeatable and consistent. Throwing out "bad days" and "good days" of physical performance.


That's entirely possible, as 404s are more aero than Ksyrium rims. But at a guess you'd have to average 65km/h on the Mavics to get a such a boost from the Zipps. :wink:

If you're riding at 35km/h, boosting your speed by 2,5km/h for free by swapping wheels, maybe it's placebo! :wink:

Weightweenism varies. Some build bikes for exhibitions, some just have the money to buy the best, others like me like spending winter evenings finding ways to improve my bike and I tend to enjoy the engineering involved.

Remember, what's cutting edge on here can become mainstream two years later. A sub 1000g frame? Only on here at first and now you can find plenty for US$2000. Carbon stems? A luxury from Schmolke, now produced by Oval Concepts / Ritchey etc. And I love all the niche manufacturers, like 0-G and THM who are pushing the boundaries...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:18 pm 
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I am a tech nerd. I love the tech stuff that this forum offers, and I have to give praise to those who innovate and go out try the new stuff. From there we have had amazing advances in the technology we use today. However, I race, and I train up to 30 hours per week. I find for my own use super light weight parts are absolutely useless. From my experience Carbon bars are a waste of money, one fall and they are done, you cannot get back on and race. Carbon stems, I have had two and have broke two. Single pivot lightweight brakes, what is the point, race cars get bigger heavier brakes as they allows their stopping power to increase. The ability to brake late can allow you to escape on a decent.
A lot of the stuff on this forum I do not even see pros riding, as well as I do not think you would see them riding even if the 6.8 thing was modified.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:45 pm 
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RoadKill wrote:
Possible placebo, but I gain between 1.4 to 1.6 mph to my average speed, at the same perceived level of effort, when I switch from my Kyserium SL's to my Zipp 404's. That has been repeatable and consistent. Throwing out "bad days" and "good days" of physical performance.


FWIW I noticed a similar average speed increase between my crap 28h wheels and my Rolf Vigors(1). I'm pretty sure this was not a placebo.


1. I no longer recommend these wheels as I've had them long enough to give a proper review.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:49 pm 
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I posted in that thread too. I gave the OP all the information I had about wheelsetc. And, I should note that almost all of the posters there were very informative, sharing their opinions and knowledge, and very few people were judgemental regarding WW. Whereas some people here rapidly dismissed the entire BF crowd. Most did not, but a few did. It goes both ways. Something to think about.

I respect the innovation and RD that goes on behind the scenes with the companies that produce the products we talk about here. Whether they are "rideable" is obviously a hot topic. However, with time, those products become mainstream, durable, and affordable. I'd rather see advances in material development and production than someone removing seals from their hubs to save 2 grams, but that's just me.

Some things, like superlight carbon cranks, are just not worth it to me, having seen what happens to both the bike and rider if and when they fail. I race my bike, and having a pair of uberlight cranks might look nice on the scale, but exploding at 30mph+ during a crit wouldn't be pretty. Others, like deep dish carbon wheels, are something that I'm going to be laying down the cash for shortly. To each his own, and while I don't choose to buy some products, I'm not going to rip on people who do.


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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:49 pm 


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