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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:06 pm 
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Does anyone know of brands making beryllium parts?

Except for price, is there a downside of beryllium?

I know the elongation % is very small with pure beryllium, but there is different "metal compositions" that have cured this problem.

Is it possible to CNC-machining beryllium? I was thinking of making for example pedal-spindles, bb-axles, chainrings and disc rotors.

Any thought?

Thanks in advance!

LAN


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:32 pm 
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LAN wrote:
Does anyone know of brands making beryllium parts?

I don't know any.
Beyond made prototype frames out of Beryllium in the past.
tune made also some prototype parts out of Beryllium,
but these were just for testing, they were never commercially available.

Quote:
Except for price, is there a downside of beryllium?

Definitely.
It's extremely toxic. Beryllium particles lead to lung cancer.

Quote:
I know the elongation % is very small with pure beryllium, but there is different "metal compositions" that have cured this problem.

I can't imagine that Beryllium alloys are commercially available to normal persons and if they would be it would blast everyones pocket.

Quote:
Is it possible to CNC-machining beryllium? I was thinking of making for example pedal-spindles, bb-axles, chainrings and disc rotors.<

Well, if you own a cleanroom, a breathe mask, a full body suit and are capable to seal the surface with a durable coating after the machining, the answer is yes. :wink: :D


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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:32 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:54 pm 
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I think it would not be very good to make parts of Beryllium. Otherwise it should allready excist


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:11 pm 
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Beryllium is used in many applications (but not in the bike industry as of yet). Most notebly it is used in several golf clubs (mostly in drivers) because of it's light weight.

The biggest issue is cost. It's a very high priced metal and the fabrication costs are also very high. As noted above Beryllium is toxic. But not as severly as stated. It is listed by OSHA as a human carcinogen but only in respirable forms (you have to breath the dust or fumes in). So in order to produce any commercial products out of beryllium (or a alloy of the metal) you have to have pretty strict worker protection standards in place.

So add up the cost of the metal and the cost of production and you have a pretty hefty price tag.

Not to say that it's not feasible. Some things like frames might be something we will see in the future....but I imagine that other options will prove out to be more affordable (metal matrix, carbon matrix, ect).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:21 pm 
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Here is an interesting piece on beryllium in the bike industry. It's about half way down the page.


http://www.solace.mh.se/~turbo/mek/metals/final.htm


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 6:47 pm 
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Quote:
Definitely.
It's extremely toxic. Beryllium particles lead to lung cancer.


Extremely toxic? After a quick search I found that about 2% of the people that were inhaling beryllium dust over a period(worked with it daily) developed CBD, a lung disease(not cancer). Most of the infected got it before it was know that it was toxic, and a effectiv "safety rules" were available.

Quote:
I can't imagine that Beryllium alloys are commercially available to normal persons and if they would be it would blast everyones pocket.


Well, there are different sources selling it, but if they are willing to sell at a low-volum order I don't know. Pricey, yes I know!

Quote:
Well, if you own a cleanroom, a breathe mask, a full body suit and are capable to seal the surface with a durable coating after the machining, the answer is yes.


I also red that CNC-machining left only big pieces, and no small airbourne particles you could inhale. And a finished product was not dangerous.(don't need a durable coating.)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:01 pm 
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Joel wrote:
I think it would not be very good to make parts of Beryllium. Otherwise it should allready excist


Well some have tried to make beryllium products as stated by Florian.
Why they haven't become available is probably because of cost.

The only mechanical "downside" I know of is the small elongation %. (With different be-alloys the elongation is about 7-12%, same as steel.)

Well I should wait a few years anyway, I'm maybe about to start studying for a Master of material physics.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:24 pm 
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LAN wrote:
Extremely toxic? After a quick search I found that about 2% of the people that were inhaling beryllium dust over a period(worked with it daily) developed CBD, a lung disease(not cancer). Most of the infected got it before it was know that it was toxic, and a effectiv "safety rules" were available.

My sources say that it's "very toxic".
Can you post the link to your source?
Beside inhaling you also shouldn't touch it, because it may lead to contact dermatitis.
The danger for the health was the reason why Beryllium is forbidden in the Formula One since 2000.

Quote:
Well, there are different sources selling it, but if they are willing to sell at a low-volum order I don't know. Pricey, yes I know!

They might be willing, but Beryllium is a so called strategic metal and I guess you need some documents to get alloy plates.
It's primarly used in the armament industry and in very small amounts for springs in clockworks.

Quote:
I also red that CNC-machining left only big pieces, and no small airbourne particles you could inhale. And a finished product was not dangerous.(don't need a durable coating.)

I wouldn't trust this. This might be correct for Al or CrMo, but I don't know if this is the same on Be.
Addtionaly I've no clue if special tools are needed to cut Be.

AFAIK Chris Hinshaw (the founder of Beyond) did clear coat his frames.
One of the reasons that his Be frames were only available for a short period was his concerns about the durability of the clear coating.
A single crash would have been enough to scratch Be particles off.

You mentioned brake rotors. How do you prevent people from inhaling particles?
Chainrings do also wear over the time.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:40 pm 
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Don't blow the toxic claim to far out of wack. First understand that everything is toxic....it just depends on the exposure level. Hell water is toxic if to much is consumed in to short of a period of time.

So to more address your issue of toxicity with Be. Here is a good link that explains the probability of chronic health effects of working directly with Be.

http://www.nationaljewish.org/medfacts/ ... dfact.html

One thing to keep in mind is that this source is addressing the occupational exposure to Be. In other words, someone that works in a Be plant. There possibility for exposure is significantly higher than the normal consumer public.

If you had a frame made of Be, I think the real risk would be if you decided to do some grinding or welding on it. Just riding it around would be harmless. Your exposure risk is very low. I can take a piece of raw asbestos (the actual rock) and juggle it around and all day long and my exposure risk of contracting asbestosis is very low. Now if I decided to take that rock and crush it into a bunch of very fine particles then my exposure risk goes way up! If you take your Be bike and crash on it, the scratch might produce some small particle, but I would be more likely to be injured from the crash than from the risk of lung cancer.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:43 pm 
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By the way if you want a ton more sources, see below. I currently work in the field of Occupational Safety and have been working with occupational exposures for over 10 year now.

http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/beryllium/


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:52 pm 
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Xterra Racer wrote:
Hell water is toxic if to much is consumed in to short of a period of time.

:lol:
You're right. It becomes dangerous after downing 12 litres, right? :D

Thanks for the links!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:12 pm 
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You're right. It becomes dangerous after downing 12 litres, right?

Well if you really want to technical the term for Water Intoxication is hyponatremia. It's basicall when you drink so much water it dilutes the blood in your system.

http://www.usatf.org/coaches/library/hy ... tement.pdf

However, the drowning thing is bad to :o


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:23 pm 
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Xterra Racer wrote:
Well if you really want to technical the term for Water Intoxication is hyponatremia. It's basicall when you drink so much water it dilutes the blood in your system.

That's exactly what I meant.
I'm just wondering how someone can drink so many water in such a short time.

But now I'm completely off-topic. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:31 pm 
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Acutally it's not a necessarily a function of drinking to much water in to short of a time as it is diluting your body of electrolites. For example, if a during the Tour a rider only drinks water the day before (instead of a sport drink) and continues to drink lots of water during a hot stage and not eat properly, they will rob their system of electolites and can cause their system to go into shock and possibly death. That's why they drink both water and stuff like gatorade and munch down certain foods.

And yes....way, way off topic now :wink:


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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:31 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:34 pm 
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Back on topic.....

I think the biggest hinderance to the use of Be in anthing other than military applications is the cost factor. At 200 times the cost of Aluminum its going to be a pretty expensive pedal spindal!!


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