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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 1:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:00 am
Posts: 152
Location: Reggio Emilia, ITALY
Sorry... It's obvoious you haven't ever ridden a Pinarello bike.
Stiffness is one of the greates enemies of descending capacity of a bike. Better: stiffness where not required. If you have the opporunity, try a Scapin S8: [the frame is quite soft, but very "composed"] + [The fork instead is very absorbing, but laterally rigid] = best descending bike.
Pinarello Prince was a great climber-descender. Dogma now is same climber but better descender.
Obvoiusly is not the number of victories that make a bike a good bike.
Remember: Dogma is not a prototype for lightweight riders used only on mountain stages (CAAD8, Trek Superlight), it's not a "heavy" bike (Trek Madone), or a custom-made sprinters' bike (Cipollini's Specialized) and is THE MOST TESTED bike in the world.

It's my opinion, I admit it.
Bye, Benz.


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 Post subject:
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 1:52 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 2:57 pm 
Hmm so its the fork than and not the frame?!?! :D
Or is it the position of the hub in relation to the frame head angle...
And why is pinarello Dogma a good climber?

I accept your opinion about that frame, you like it thats cool, but there is no real technical evidenz for it though, just the feel the frame gives the rider and that feel is not the same for everyone.

Peace out! :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:43 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Belgium
for the moment I have a Prince but he's not very light (full Record, Zepp XL bar and stem and Pinarello seatpost)
I don't find that the Prince is a great downhillbike, but also not bad at all.
The best descending frame that I had was a 1.2kg Altec 2+ frame with a 800g alu fork (seat angle = 71°). With that bike you descend like a falcon.
But the Prince is one of the best allrounders of the peloton


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:25 pm 
What? A seat angle of 71° ?? Holy moly..thats a weird geometry...what size is that frame? 65?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:48 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:00 am
Posts: 152
Location: Reggio Emilia, ITALY
Try the Dogma, so...
It's 3 years ahead (of Prince) with the bike's concept.
When I talk of downhiller's bike I'm talking of carbon fork+ race ready design... obvious.

It's very long to explain why Pinarello Dogma is great in most race- fast ride situations... but I'll try.

You're 40km/h, on smooth surface, you're pulling along with the peloton. An escape breakes suddenly... and the surface turns rough. On a Dogma you simply stand out of saddle (and push hard) and... the bike became stable, but you feel your effort translating into speed. If you're on a 1kg U2, you push on the pedals and... you keep jumping on the road, and your speed don't increase that much. If you are on a softer bike, instead, you probably don't need to go out of saddle to get stability, but if do it, you'll get the same treatment of the U2.

The story don't change much in uphill. A Cannondale is quite the same in uphill, but there's big difference in downhill. And in sprinting as well...

Most of carbon racers, too, aren't as reactive in max-effort situations, but they are more comfortable (i'm talking of top end bikes, not 1000$ taiwanese clones). They are even more all-rounders, loosing something in race (or very fast) situations.

I repeat: we're talking about opinions, and very few facts.

Bye, Benz.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 8:34 am 
Iam sorry but thats the biggest nonsense i ever heard...opinion or not...

For sure there are differences between frames yu can feel...but that a frame makes yu magically faster in the same situation than others...
Yu can feel things like stiffness and losing power cause the frame is too soft but what i heard about the Dogma is that its not the stiffest frame out there. Its actually just average. Its a very good looking bike for sure but its just another alloy thin walled can...nothing else.

But hey, if yu feel that bike makes yu race faster...thats awesome for yu ...motivation is always welcome.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:09 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:43 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Belgium
Anonymous wrote:
What? A seat angle of 71° ?? Holy moly..thats a weird geometry...what size is that frame? 65?


It was a 55 c-c


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:00 am
Posts: 152
Location: Reggio Emilia, ITALY
It's obvious u don't race...
Oh... and just for your information: it's not alloy... it's magnesium.
I know what you're thinking now... and yes, it's not alloy or magnesium or plutonium that makes the difference: it's the way it is projected, designed, manufactured, welded, assembled...

You don't seem to understand my words...
The bike is the machine that moltiplicates your effort, and puts it to the ground. If the bike is unable (or less able) to put it to the ground, you're losing something.
Try to imagine: Mario Cipollini sprinting on a Litespeed Ghisallo with Zipp Z3 wheels. He won't translate his power (and effort) into speed (not as much as on his rigid, compact bike with heavy but very stiff wheels).

Oh, and I know Dogma isn't that stiff. If you read my previous post is exactly what I wrote... That explained perfectly what I ment: you loose power on a soft bike, but you loose the same also on a to stiff (or stiff where not required) frame.

Bye, Benz.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:06 pm 
And i say again there is no evidence for these thing yu say. Just your imaginating/feel/opinion..whatever. Its just nonsense to tell that this frame got these attributes. Show me a single evdidence...

You sound like a marketing guy of pinarello company to me...you getting ridiculous about that frame...
Magnesium u said? Fully made out of magnesium..heh...i doubt that.

Do yu really think the pros pick their bikes by their own opinion? LOL...they get what the sponsor gives them and thats it. Maybe the top bikers get what they really want...special frames especially created for them but the rest gets standard stuff.
If yu want to tell us here that with the dogma Lance or Ullrich is riding Alp D Huez in 30 min... dude thats bullshit. Get real.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:43 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Belgium
All pro bikes are good. Some bikes are better than, but it's the rider who makes the difference.
I was just looking for a real weight weenie frame but which is not to weak. Some years ago the lightest frames were all SC61.10A, after some time they broke - mostly at the BB.
I think it's quite stupid to say that the Dogma is that much better than the Scott. The Dogma is about 300g heavier and seems to be comfortabler, but the Scott is a real lightweight asphalt road frame. The Dogma is probably better for WorldCup races like the Amstel gold Race, Luik-Bastenaken-Luik,... But I don't think that they race on them during Paris-Roubaix. It's true that a superstiff frame is nog good at all, but all the weight is important and the rest you have to feel when you are racing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:40 pm 
Paris Roubaix....there wasnt a single rider from team Telekom who was on a Dogma...but there where guys on the scott...the picture is taken from there.


http://www.dkverlag.de/tour/attachment.php?s=83e4fbf9370a9309cf386c7318444261&postid=47659url


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:43 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Belgium
Anonymous wrote:
Paris Roubaix....there wasnt a single rider from team Telekom who was on a Dogma...but there where guys on the scott...the picture is taken from there.


http://www.dkverlag.de/tour/attachment.php?s=83e4fbf9370a9309cf386c7318444261&postid=47659url


Why did they use the Scandium in the TDF?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 6:01 pm 
No clue...maybe it has something to do with the probs about the name rights...C1 was already taken by Citroen i guess..so thats why they changed to Cr1.
They used both frames at Paris-Roubaix though...maybe at the TDF too, but i got no pictures of them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:00 am
Posts: 152
Location: Reggio Emilia, ITALY
I was on Galibier in TDF Alpe d'Huez stage.
I saw non Scott C1, and lots of Scandium bikes (on admiral cars there were only alu). This doesn't mean that one or two Top riders had a C1.
And I don't think it's for name reasons... But i don't know the reason.

Dogma wasn't in Paris Roubaix for two evident reasons (I'm not defending Dogma, now; I'm only telling you why). 1st Pinarello is able to give to Pro-teams special bike only made for Paris Roubaix. Roubaix is a stand-alone race, with special bike needings. Second, because Pinarello at that time hadn't released Dogma to teams (except for Petacchi and Bartoli, and maybe Basso, but don't knw exactly). At Giro d'Italia Fassa Bortolo was supplied with Prince SL (and two or three Dogma).

[For HäddaFahn : you don't seem to understand my words. You don't seem even to read them. You always seem to misunderstand my words, and seems to me you're always trying to modify what I say (in order to use it) against me.
Try a Dogma... then jump on a Colnago C40. Still need evidences? I DON'T MEAN COLNAGO IS WORSE, THEY'RE JUST DIFFERENT. OK?
If you don't notice that... It's your the probelm...]

Pro bikes are all top Level, obious. Someone is better, someone is worse. Armstrong wins are in his legs, lungs, head, heart and determination. Bettini wins on his legs, not on his Time, and so did Vinokurov (he could win on Pinarello, DeRosa, Cannondale, ecc).

But we're not talking of pro-riders, right? For normal people like us, bike is more important (but think of Armstrong and Ullrich: do you think they care less of the bike than us? They're maniacs!).

I can feel differences from one bike to another. And i tell you my feeling and opinions. Joel question was not on opinions? Was on absolute facts? Ok, if you want facts buy the lightest bike you can find (the only measurable, and not opinable fact).
Joel, don't think of Dogma as a allrounder: it's a true climber, on of the best around there.

Bye, Benz.


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 Post subject:
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:58 am 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:47 am 
Well there wont be status quo between us.
So last words about Dogma.
Its your opinion, that the Dogma is a good climber and or decending bike.
Good. thats fine with me. If yu feel that...perfect.
But i say that a different rider maybe feels different about that frame. So...yu cant say Dogma is a good climber/decending bike in general. You cannot use your feelings about that frame and take them for granted.

EOD

If yu are a race, yu surely can tell me your LSS....


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