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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:59 am
Posts: 87
I've been reading quite a few magazines and watching reviews online and I'm wondering....

-Pinarello F10......is it really THAT good? Sure there are plenty of other bikes out there that get 8s 9s out of 10 but this thing gets a 10 in a Cycling mag. I know a lot is PR, but they make it out as the near perfect bike....
and the F8....they write it has 'less road buzz' than F10....so its sort of even better and cheaper

-Colnago C60......haven't even read one thing bad about it....except maybe its not 700g

-S-Works.....wins tons of races, but read a few negatives....

-New Trek Madone 9 gets raving reviews....

I'm sure there are tons more out there....Time, Look, Spez, Giant, Factor.....custom made ones...

I know there's a lot of seasoned riders on this forum, plenty with different views and feelings of carbon, alu, steel, technology etc etc
You guys who have had the fortune chance to ride or own these types of bikes, are they really THAT good?
What were they?

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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:57 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 4403
Location: Natovi Landing
LOL ... they are noticeably better than the also-ran carbon framed bikes yes. More responsive, smoother, better handling. Not that much faster of course, but it all adds up to a nicer riding experience.

I hired a low end carbon framed bike while on holiday recently and even trying to allow for inferior wheels and contact points, was shocked at how bad it was.

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Last edited by sawyer on Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:34 pm
Posts: 489
I dunno I'm not one for marketing claims and hype. I have a 2015 supersix evo HM. I know for a fact no other bike will make me faster or do anything better that I would be able to actually feel to justify the "upgrade". The cdale is snappy and light. My lugged steel frame is smooth but not as responsive (long and low geometry) but can go to the same rides and take my pulls and close gaps just the same. Taking delivery of a custom steel/carbon frame in a couple months. The new bike will be great, awesome builder, the process, design, materials, geometry choices. But I'm not going to be any faster on it. More confort, maybe. Running my tubulars at 80/85psi (I'm 168lbs) I don't see how it could get much more comfortable then that. As long as the bike inspires you to ride then go for it.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:32 pm
Posts: 12
Comparing high end frames to eachother is difficult and mostly boils down to feelings, brand loyalty and looks to the buyer. However I must agree with the preious post when comparing towards low end carbon frames. I borrowed a cheap carbon bike from a friend, he had made a very sensible upgrade to DA C24 wheels meaning that the wheels are plenty stiff. The frame however was a sad story, flexy, non racy geometry the general feel was slow and heavy. Gearing was 9-speed Tiagra which also felt imprecice and sluggish, compared to my DA Di2. I actually did not want to try an all out sprint on the thing for fear of breaking the frame, probably not a rational fear but this was my feeling with the bike.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm
Posts: 79
I own a C60 and an open mould I bought from planet X for about £500. I also own an old Look but can't compare that as I haven't ridden it since I've had the C60. I have to say that although the C60 is about 8 times the cost it is nowhere near 8 times better than the Planet X. To be honest If I didn't look down I'd be hard pushed to tell which I was on apart from when I got up to high speed and a few tight corners the handling of the C60 would be better but it's not like the Planet X is rubbish. I'm sure there's some utter garbage carbon frames out there but if you're not fussed about a name then the so-called top end frames you mention are not worth it at all. But saying that I love my C60 and as budget allows would buy the same again.


Last edited by c60rider on Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm
Posts: 3284
Yes and no.

Top, top level frames have a tactile feel that makes them really great fun to ride on the limit... but it's not really any faster. In between my last bike and current bike (Evo Hi-Mod and 2018 Cervelo R5) I recently rode a borrowed Scott Foil HMF (£2700 complete bike) for 1500 miles, raced it a few times and you know what? It was also really good. If I wasn't able to get anything better I'd have been quite happy keeping it and riding it for the forseeable future. Since it coincided with the culmination of a very productive block of training I actually did pretty much my fastest rides ever on it. There was a small lack of snap under hard acceleration and a slight heavy feeling through the pedals on very steep out of the saddle ramps but most of that I'd attribute that to the wheels. Otherwise it was smooth, handled great and had maybe a half a kilo weight penalty over a race-ready build that'd cost 3 times as much.

That said, I love my new R5. But it doesn't change my life. It doesn't move me up a Cat. It doesn't knock 10 minutes off my PB up the Stelvio. It just feels nice to ride and it feels nice to own.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:27 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am
Posts: 1423
Sorry but after living in Asia for 5 years & seeing many things made
for large companies that are then cosmetically enhanced back in
ordering country but also being sold as "generic" to others I would have to say Nope

The Carbon bikes you mention are that good mainly because those that paid $$$ for them will likely say
nothing else but good. But...are they better than brand X ? No IMHO
Given similar geometry & stiffness no they are pretty similar as they should be.

But I will also say Carbon started full of promise back when they allowed some flex/liveliness to a frame
When they built tubes of various stiffness & used carbon lugs to tune sections of the frame individually.
These days they have gone all mono & so stiff they are similar to riding a wooden bike. Also they expect one degree of stiffness
to accommodate all riders of various weights & strengths

As Tom Ritchey recently said in an interview ....
Quote:
So when you see 10 years of carbon development and then everyone switches back to a 27.2 diameter seat post and why - it tells the story of steel.
All the rigidity that's been put into the frame at the expense of comfort and the wheels have resulted in only one area where they can find comfort. [Tom chuckles]


I am not saying Steel is the only answer but I AM saying current crop of mono carbon
has NO soul at all.

All the above just in my opinion of course :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:42 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:00 am
Posts: 116
Having lived in Asia for 12 years (beat that), Mr. Specialized himself told me that carbon bikes are the bee's knees, and Specialized bikes the ultimate in bee's knees technology.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:56 am 
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RimClencher wrote:
Mr. Specialized himself told me that carbon bikes are the bee's knees, and Specialized bikes the ultimate in bee's knees technology.


:D :D :D I would expect Mr Specialized to say nothing less :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 8426
Location: Los Feliz, Los Angeles, California
Cognitive biases you should be aware of whenever you're dealing with shit-shows like the cycling industry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias (ie, I chose it, need to defend the investment, yes it's superior)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect (ie, it's the latest and greatest and the media is saying so, the pros are riding it, the cool kids are riding it, therefore yes it's better) (this applies to a lot of social media styles/posts as well, not just in cycling. basically people with narcissism issues just copy the fck out of each other in order to try to get some kind of validation for their existence on this planet and in this lifetime even if those 'likes' are not at all genuine)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias (ie, yes it feels superior after having forked the money over for it)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_correlation (ie, the bike feels superior, not the fact that I feel better today/fitter/good weather/or whatever)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect (ie, I bought it (or was given to it by sponsor) therefore I must give it attributes to justify it)

http://coglode.com/gem/price-value-bias (this one should be obvious, if it this cognitive bias isn't obvious to you, you may in fact be the perfect idiot for any marketing department's target goals)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion (ie, you paid for a high-end item, realize that the low-priced item may be just as good, but because you paid for the high-end item/brand name/whatever you will actively and subconsciously dismiss the qualities of the low-priced item in order to compensate for your own internal struggles on being gullible to the bullshit)


It's not just in the cycling-related media (magazine, blog or otherwise) - a lot of posts on forums, WW included, are hilariously displaying these basic cognitive biases and the posters continue to hold those biases no matter what, day after day, month after month, year after year.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:28 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:08 pm
Posts: 193
Also:

"I'm selling it, and therefore it's the greatest."

"I have a huge ego, and therefore whatever I ride/do is the bestest of the bestest in the world."


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:13 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm
Posts: 1355
Quote:
I AM saying current crop of mono carbon
has NO soul at all.


I rode a mid-grade Madonne and it felt like that. A little wooden and souless but otherwise perfectly fine.

I love my C59 because it has a zing to it. I call it springiness. I think the carbon is tuned better than a mid-grade Trek. They have the right amounts of stiffness and flex in the right places. It feels fast and is a pleasure to ride. I know it's not faster than a mid-grade Madonne but it's a better ride.

To the OP, I wouldn't buy F10 unless you get to road test one. See the recent thread on the F8.

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Last edited by AJS914 on Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:14 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:54 am
Posts: 58
Location: Thailand
prendrefeu wrote:
Cognitive biases you should be aware of whenever you're dealing with shit-shows like the cycling industry:

Thank you, interesting :D


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am
Posts: 1423
AJS914 wrote:



I love my C59 because it has a zing to it. I call it springiness. They have the right amounts of stiffness and flex in the right places. It feels fast and is a pleasure to ride.


Yes that is basically what I'm talking about & what I consider a nice ride

The Colnago's with their lugged carbon construction + it's internally ribbed tubes was definitely seeking
this type of give & take/liveliness or springiness as you call it


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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:29 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:56 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:59 am
Posts: 87
flying wrote:
AJS914 wrote:



I love my C59 because it has a zing to it. I call it springiness. They have the right amounts of stiffness and flex in the right places. It feels fast and is a pleasure to ride.


Yes that is basically what I'm talking about & what I consider a nice ride

The Colnago's with their lugged carbon construction + it's internally ribbed tubes was definitely seeking
this type of give & take/liveliness or springiness as you call it


I was curious whether there were any C59s left but none around where I live anyway.

I'm certain all those bikes mentioned and even the Diverge I ride now exceeds my personal ability to use it to its full potential. The creaking bb (praxis alba in osbb pf) does annoy the heck out of me though....but thats another story.

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