I have a meeting on Monday. I am looking at a new 2:1 hubset. they would be made in the EU.
I have various idea's in my head.
Basic shell design will allow for 2 6803 bearings DS and 1 6803 bearing NDS. Or 2x 6903 bearing DS and one 6903 NDS.
Freehub will have 2x 6803 bearings. Axle will be 17mm alloy with NDS preload adjusment. The hub will be a free axle design.
I am not obsessed by engagement so a 3 pawl freehub is likely as is a 30T ratchet. This is a long lived system.
the hub will probably have traditional flanges as straight pull spokes are not ubiquitous. If a straight pull shell is opted for I would supply a spoke length chart to make life easier. Just not sure at the moment but since I have never had trouble with J bend spoke I see no reason why I should complicate matters. For traditional flanges PCD will be ~50mm DS and 40mm NDS.
DS flange to centre will be 17.5mm and NDS flange to centre will be 49mm.
Drilling can 16:8 or 18:9 although the latter would require rims that are not widely available.
Front hub will use 6803 bearings and a 17mm axle again with bearing preload. Centre flange to centre hub should be about 39 or 40mm. I see no reason why the flanges should not be spaced wide apart. PCD would have to be at least 35mm. A smaller flange would require a smaller bearing.
I will post a drawing when that is finalised. the reason behind this is I fit alot of tubeless tyres to wheels and the tension drop is big. While this has not caused problems yet I think triplet lacing will prevent issues. Also there is no readily available proper triplet lacing hub I can lay my hands on and I like this lacing pattern.
BORG triplet hub project
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bm0p700f wrote:the reason behind this is I fit alot of tubeless tyres to wheels and the tension drop is big.
You're right about that. I had never really noticed a tension drop on fitting tyres till I went tubeless. With tubeless it's striking.
Good luck with your project, good ideas there, practical and modern.
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bm0p700f
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Is there a market though? Minimum order is 200 sets. No while i build alot of wheels every year. Given the i want to keep the price under control and no more than £250 per pair i expect the weight to be arund 360g/pair.
This is the thing i find with hubs. I use allt of miche primato's because they are cheap and reliable. Having tried various other more expensive hubs none are more reliable and some are not as relaible. Most of the reliable ones are only upto 80g lighter (white industries t11 for example) but these are vastly more expensive at least you get a ti freehub. You have to spend more on carbon ti for example to loose 200g but essentially they offer the same thing in terms of the wheel that results.
If a hub is going to cost more than a miche primato i think it needs to offer something other hubs dont. This in part has influenced the specification also i know it works.
The one question that remains is which bearings. I could use ina, skf, ezo, enduro e.t.c. i'll see if can get skf at a good price. I will also see if proper circlips can be used in the freehub to allow the bearing to replaced rather than buy a whole new freehub.
This is the thing i find with hubs. I use allt of miche primato's because they are cheap and reliable. Having tried various other more expensive hubs none are more reliable and some are not as relaible. Most of the reliable ones are only upto 80g lighter (white industries t11 for example) but these are vastly more expensive at least you get a ti freehub. You have to spend more on carbon ti for example to loose 200g but essentially they offer the same thing in terms of the wheel that results.
If a hub is going to cost more than a miche primato i think it needs to offer something other hubs dont. This in part has influenced the specification also i know it works.
The one question that remains is which bearings. I could use ina, skf, ezo, enduro e.t.c. i'll see if can get skf at a good price. I will also see if proper circlips can be used in the freehub to allow the bearing to replaced rather than buy a whole new freehub.
I like the project!
However, for myself I don't see the advantage with a triplet hubset that's 360g. I'd just go for a sub-300 set of Novatecs and use 28 instead of 24 spokes in the rear if I really needed the extra durability, and still end up lighter?
However, for myself I don't see the advantage with a triplet hubset that's 360g. I'd just go for a sub-300 set of Novatecs and use 28 instead of 24 spokes in the rear if I really needed the extra durability, and still end up lighter?
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bm0p700f
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There is always a trade off. Given i live in the u.k where it wet alot a hub like the novatec a291 f482 simply wont sell well. I sell the novatec hubs not very often though a folk know they are race days hubs not all weather training hubs. Also i would not ride a hub like this or even willing to build wheels with them. Every time i have used those light weight novatec hubs i get complaints about bearing life and have to replace the bearings for free. No thanks to that.
Novatec and bitex have the cheap light weight hubs sewn up why try and have the same thing made. That would be a pointless waste of money.
Also dura ace hubs are 370g. Do folk complain they are too heavy. Or are hope hubs or white ind t11 too heavy? In every design there are compromises. You have to decide who your market is before you decide what compromises you make.
Novatec hub axles do bend and break (it has happened to a couple of customers) which puts me off trying to make a lightweight hub as it will end carbon ti expensive and hubs that expensive dont sell well.
I have thought about kickstarter and might do that given the numbers needed for a production run. It would be a huge outlay if cash otherwise.
Novatec and bitex have the cheap light weight hubs sewn up why try and have the same thing made. That would be a pointless waste of money.
Also dura ace hubs are 370g. Do folk complain they are too heavy. Or are hope hubs or white ind t11 too heavy? In every design there are compromises. You have to decide who your market is before you decide what compromises you make.
Novatec hub axles do bend and break (it has happened to a couple of customers) which puts me off trying to make a lightweight hub as it will end carbon ti expensive and hubs that expensive dont sell well.
I have thought about kickstarter and might do that given the numbers needed for a production run. It would be a huge outlay if cash otherwise.
I wanted to build a triplet wheel one time, about 3 years ago, and I had to find a crashed Dura Ace factory wheel to get the 21 hole hub off of it. That also got me a ti freehub.
What price are you going to sell these for and what type of freehub material?
One way to cut capital outlay is to just offer the rear. There are tons of front hubs out there people can buy off the shelf.
Best of luck.
What price are you going to sell these for and what type of freehub material?
One way to cut capital outlay is to just offer the rear. There are tons of front hubs out there people can buy off the shelf.
Best of luck.
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bm0p700f
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Well meeting over. The front hub will be one of the factory's current offerings which is for j bend spokes.
The rear hub will j bend and will therefore have a forged shell. This mean a run of approximatley 500 hubs is needed but the beauty of this this i only have to pay for the shells and of course the tools up front. The shells can yhen be finished and drilled on the cnc machines in smaller batches.
Bearings will be skf and due to the lower cost of the shells when forging i can go for double sealed 9 bearings 2x ds and 1x nds and 2x 6803 bearings i the freehub. This should make it a proper all weather hub. Having seen this factories production facility i am more than happy to go forward.
So f45 me and the factory are aleady there.
The freehub will be aluminium. Titanium is just too expensive. I sell a handful of da 9000 or whote industries hubs a year which tells me something.
Given the front hub is fairly cheap this will keep the cost down. I dont want them to be more than £200 for pair. How much exact'y will depend on the cost of the shells and the tooling. This has to be worked out. Also the cost of that will depend on how much post forging machining i can afford to do while keep to my target retail price. How much maching can be done will then affect the final weight.
The hubs have gained weight by going for bigger rear bearings but the emphais for me is create the most reliable hubs i can not the lightest. The other upside is by using internals from another hub that has proven itself over many years, a full set of spares will be available down to the ratchet rings. They will xd driver compatible as well. At some point a 3d printed model of the hub will be made.
With asymmetric rims the tension balance will be near 100% and there plenty of these to choose from now.
The rear hub will j bend and will therefore have a forged shell. This mean a run of approximatley 500 hubs is needed but the beauty of this this i only have to pay for the shells and of course the tools up front. The shells can yhen be finished and drilled on the cnc machines in smaller batches.
Bearings will be skf and due to the lower cost of the shells when forging i can go for double sealed 9 bearings 2x ds and 1x nds and 2x 6803 bearings i the freehub. This should make it a proper all weather hub. Having seen this factories production facility i am more than happy to go forward.
So f45 me and the factory are aleady there.
The freehub will be aluminium. Titanium is just too expensive. I sell a handful of da 9000 or whote industries hubs a year which tells me something.
Given the front hub is fairly cheap this will keep the cost down. I dont want them to be more than £200 for pair. How much exact'y will depend on the cost of the shells and the tooling. This has to be worked out. Also the cost of that will depend on how much post forging machining i can afford to do while keep to my target retail price. How much maching can be done will then affect the final weight.
The hubs have gained weight by going for bigger rear bearings but the emphais for me is create the most reliable hubs i can not the lightest. The other upside is by using internals from another hub that has proven itself over many years, a full set of spares will be available down to the ratchet rings. They will xd driver compatible as well. At some point a 3d printed model of the hub will be made.
With asymmetric rims the tension balance will be near 100% and there plenty of these to choose from now.
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bm0p700f
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Well Miche drop by the shop today. Got a resonable price for setting up the machines for a production run. Next step is send them a drawing.
This will be a completley new hub, the only parts I will borrow from there parts bin is there SWR axle and end caps. In fact they informed me they have an end cap design they did for a customer a few years back that never made it into production for CX wheels to prevent water ingress into the bearings. I will. probbaly use that.
Looks like my target price of £200 is achievable. SKF bearings will be specced and there will be 1x 6803 NDS rear and 2x 6803 or 2x 6903 bearing DS in addition to the 2 bearings in the freehub body. so that 5 rear. Which bearing size will depend on the final weight of the rear hub. I am not sure 6903 bearings are actually needed but if hub weight is not increased by much it is probably worth going for.
I also talked with them about a new freehub which they were receptive to. Currently the SWR and supertype freehub use a three pawl design with a single circular spring just like campagnolo freehubs. I would like a 4 pawl freehub with the pawls independantly sprung. The pawls could be offset in a asymmetric arrangement to increases points of engagement without increasing the number of teeth on the ratchet ring. Not sure if that will cause other complications. Something to look into further. This 4 pawl freehub could be used on Miche wheels which would reduce production costs if they adopt it. I suspect they will want to see how it works for me first.
The cost of tooling means I can have my own front hub too. I might as well. This means a BORG hub wont be a rebranded novatec or bitex. It will be almost entirely new and pretty much just the way I want it.
This will be a completley new hub, the only parts I will borrow from there parts bin is there SWR axle and end caps. In fact they informed me they have an end cap design they did for a customer a few years back that never made it into production for CX wheels to prevent water ingress into the bearings. I will. probbaly use that.
Looks like my target price of £200 is achievable. SKF bearings will be specced and there will be 1x 6803 NDS rear and 2x 6803 or 2x 6903 bearing DS in addition to the 2 bearings in the freehub body. so that 5 rear. Which bearing size will depend on the final weight of the rear hub. I am not sure 6903 bearings are actually needed but if hub weight is not increased by much it is probably worth going for.
I also talked with them about a new freehub which they were receptive to. Currently the SWR and supertype freehub use a three pawl design with a single circular spring just like campagnolo freehubs. I would like a 4 pawl freehub with the pawls independantly sprung. The pawls could be offset in a asymmetric arrangement to increases points of engagement without increasing the number of teeth on the ratchet ring. Not sure if that will cause other complications. Something to look into further. This 4 pawl freehub could be used on Miche wheels which would reduce production costs if they adopt it. I suspect they will want to see how it works for me first.
The cost of tooling means I can have my own front hub too. I might as well. This means a BORG hub wont be a rebranded novatec or bitex. It will be almost entirely new and pretty much just the way I want it.
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