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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:27 am 
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BMW a better car than VW??? You have obviously never owned a POS BMW.....

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:29 am 
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Your comments regarding Miele vs. Bosch and BMW vs. VW somewhat go to the point above about Germany engineering produced in Taiwan. Bosch HAS moved a lot of their products (tools and appliances) to near east and asian manufacturing. The results speak for themselves. My Miele products are superb and made in Germany. My Festool tools are WAY better than most of Bosch products. My VW has Chinese made tires on it that cost more than German continentals and have sidewall blowouts just by looking at them!

My Chinese made specialized S-works is a piece of junk. My Chinese made Cervelo had a fork rust out with little to no exposure to sweat/water. Sorry, I cannot believe that Chinese products are anything other than another way for "high end brands" to extract extra dollars out of unwitting suckers. I opted for C59 over an M10 because I was willing to pay for craftsmanship by workers who CARE about what they are doing. Maybe this is naive.

The question of Germany vs. Italian components is an interesting one. To me, I cannot imagine the mechanical group sets working any better than they already do by Campagnolo! I just purchased 1 super record and 2 chorus groups in the last 6 months and they are just impeccable! Not sure what Germans could bring to the table other than improved electronic shifting.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:49 pm 
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It all comes down to QC. If the quality control is poor...it doesn't matter where its made.

I've had a few German cars...and currently drive a German car...and electrically...they aren't the most reliable.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:25 am 
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Getter wrote:
It all comes down to QC. If the quality control is poor...it doesn't matter where its made.

I've had a few German cars...and currently drive a German car...and electrically...they aren't the most reliable.



And when the QC is equel? :?
Then it counts HOW its constructed.
So that comes on top.

Btw in general Japanese are best in electrical things.


other thing:
BMW is not a car.
Its a BRAND that makes several car MODELS.

Bosch and Miele you can compare really, total different companies that make products in different quality lines. From budget to pro. Bosch 330.000 employees worldwide / Miele 15.000
Miele has a nice history, they made in the past also . . . bikes, lol and a motorized bike and even a car. These days not all what is sold as Miele is also made by Miele. Like Miele fridges are made by Liebherr.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:34 am 
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alexaqui wrote:

The question of Germany vs. Italian components is an interesting one. To me, I cannot imagine the mechanical group sets working any better than they already do by Campagnolo! I just purchased 1 super record and 2 chorus groups in the last 6 months and they are just impeccable! Not sure what Germans could bring to the table other than improved electronic shifting.


Image that they would come with a different approach?
Against your imagination Campa found reasons to update the topgroups for 2015. :)

There were rumours they wanted to make the design of roadracebikes more free from rules.
That could be an oppurtunity for new concepts for group-manufacturers, and maybe also to includein such a new concept more solid bracket options. I see room for improvement. :smartass:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:43 am 
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When the QC is equal...then it will depend on how well the labor force is trained.

If two different countries use the same machinery to make the same product...then it will come down to the training of the workforce. Yes?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:56 am 
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Getter wrote:
When the QC is equal...then it will depend on how well the labor force is trained.

If two different countries use the same machinery to make the same product...then it will come down to the training of the workforce. Yes?


and when the labor force is trained equel?

:roll: :wink:




Youre missing the point a bit . . .
The keypoint for the start of this topic.

Germany is positively known for manufacturing/engineering
Like Italy is positively known for designing
like Switzerland is positively known for highend watch factories
etc
etc

So when you start about where to develop certain equipment there is some logics to mention Germany.
When you talk about designing, there is some logics to mention Italy.
When you talk about highend watches there is some logics you mention Switzerland.
etc
etc


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:54 am 
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I know Germany for beer, Italy pasta, and Swiss...cheese. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:42 am 
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Getter wrote:
I know Germany for beer, Italy pasta, and Swiss...cheese. :wink:



I know America for people that only have food on their minds . . . . :D


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:00 am 
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I'm not really that interested in hydro yet and can't see it catching on despite many of its merits. My guess is that it has more to do with history than anything. Campag has been making stuff for a really, really long time. Several Japanese companies came before or at the start of Shimano and they have a lot of mechanical expertise from their other products as well. Sram had their first forays into a very niche market with GripShift/MTB. Where would a German company have fit in historically? I can't think of a time or place where it would've been logical for some kind of product to spring up in the German market and spread outward.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:04 am 
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BRM wrote:
Getter wrote:
I know Germany for beer, Italy pasta, and Swiss...cheese. :wink:



I know America for people that only have food on their minds . . . . :D


Thats why I ride a bike! :beerchug:

KWalker wrote:
I'm not really that interested in hydro yet and can't see it catching on despite many of its merits. My guess is that it has more to do with history than anything. Campag has been making stuff for a really, really long time. Several Japanese companies came before or at the start of Shimano and they have a lot of mechanical expertise from their other products as well. Sram had their first forays into a very niche market with GripShift/MTB. Where would a German company have fit in historically? I can't think of a time or place where it would've been logical for some kind of product to spring up in the German market and spread outward.


Well...SRAM has their R&D over in Germany... :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:10 pm 
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True, very true. Did they always though? My basic point was that there has to be a decisive event or market force that creates a need for a product. People don't typically say "Well, we're really good at engineering things so lets just make a cycling component group even though we really have no firsthand knowledge of how its used, desired features, or the immediate mechanics thereof"

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:39 pm 
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I guess their European HQ is in Schweinfurt. This article says that it went from a manufacturing facility to "European Development and Training Centre". http://www.bike-eu.com/Home/General/201 ... -1138648W/

I wonder where the SRAM wireless stuff is being developed...in Chicago or Schweinfurt?

I think in the end...maybe the bean counters don't think its worth it.

To put out a high end group and have it sell looks like a very difficult and expensive endeavor. Competing with Shimano will take alot of money. The R&D, marketing, and manufacturing will needs tons of money thrown at it. Like someone mentioned earlier...its got to offer something that the big 3 don't already have.

Box components is supposed to have something coming out on the MTB side with their push to shift up the cassette and press in on the lever to move down...but that hasn't come to market...and its been announced for a while now. http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/09/25/box ... on-brakes/

I wonder how a component startup will do on Shark Tank? Will the sharks invest? LOL :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:01 am 
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Location: Kaiserslautern, DE
Getter wrote:
I know Germany for beer


You are right about your other 2 assumptions but beer in Germany is not the greatest ;)

Anyways, it is a great thing when you can find mostly everything made in Germany (Here in Germany).
Most of the time articles made here are of nice quality.

Cycling here seems as it is not at the same level as other neighboring countries. The tradition of old men welding steel frames is not a thing and thus I assume that is why there is not a huge bicycle industry. It is growing with companies like Canyon, Power2Max and Rose, but to enter the gruppo market is tough. I am sure good things will continue to come out of DE, like Tune and lightweight.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:22 am 
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No doubt some of the German technical know-how and Mittelstand could support the growth of cycling manufacture ... Canyon are doing pretty well

What Germans do well in cars is continuity of styling and brand, and crucially, high-end interiors which give a very strong impression of perceived quality about the whole product, even if it is less reliable than a Mazda or Honda. VAG differentiate their brands in large part on interior quality and design ... a Skoda feels nice inside until you sit in a VW which feels nice inside until you sit in an Audi ...

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