I need a "comfort" frame, but not for the usual reasons

[ace0fclub5]

So let me get the basics out of the way here:
I'm 24, starting to race. I have a weirdly proportioned body. Long legs, long arms, short torso (82cm inseam, 177cm fingertip to fingertip, 62cm trunk, 169cm height, 120lbs/54.5kg ).
I'm currently still riding my size 54cm Tarmac seen here (scroll halfway down to see current setup). With it's zero setback post and 70mm stem, the total reach from tip of saddle to bars in 50cm. I did get a fitting done a few months ago, but not much was changed from my current setup, but I did get a better understanding as to my personal geometry. Handling is weird on this bike, and I'm starting to think the zero setback post is overemphasizing some muscles because I've had some knee pain developing over the past few months.


Now with all that out of the way, I'm looking to replace the frame with something that will allow me to use a normal 100mm stem while still retaining the same kind of weight and feel as the Tarmac. The reach of the Tarmac is 387mm, so I need something in the 350-360mm range. The CompetitiveCyclist fit calc suggests I need something with a 50-51cm TT. Basically the only options for me here are a couple frames in the smallest sizes available, many of which are "endurance" style frames, and all of which will require me to use a very long seatpost.

I'm not really able to drop another $3-5k to get a custom frame at the moment, so I'm limited to what I can find used after I sell the Tarmac frame.

Some options I have looked at:
BMC GF01 in a size 48cm
Cervelo R3 48cm (very short headtube)
Cannondale Synapse 48cm

A problem I've encountered is that no one has these bikes in these sizes available to try out. Closest I was able to find for the Cervelo was a 51cm, and when I found a 48cm Synapse, the seatpost had to be beyond the minimum insertion and they wouldn't let me try it like that.

Any advice on the frames I've mentioned or those that I should consider?

[ultimobici]

No need to quote above

If you're starting to race, consider going alloy rather than carbon. Fit is far, far more important than material, especially when racing. By going custom you can get a set up that allows a more reasonable length stem without having to resort to a overly small frame with the attendant drop issues. All of the frames you cite are not cheap, so by forgoing the black stuff you'll be on budget for the frame.

[bombertodd]

If you're having knee pains in the current fit. I'd consider getting the fit nailed down before looking at new frames.

[cyclenutnz]

A Cervelo R3 51 with 20mm of spacers (incl h/set cover), 100mm stem, 70mm reach bar (like Profile Dino) will fit exactly the same as what you have.

But you really need to get your position dialled before throwing money at another frame.

[mjduct]

Ditto to the above, get your fit locked down with a goooood fitter, then take those measurements and go from there. I'm kinda short too and ride a 0 setback post and a 90mm stem. I don't think that going down In bike size to get a setback post or a longer stem would be doing myself any favors...


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[CBJ]

Handling is weird on this bike, and I'm starting to think the zero setback post is overemphasizing some muscles because I've had some knee pain developing over the past few months.

This is a confusing sentence which do not make any sense. I do not see the correlating between the overemphasizing of muscles and handling?

I think you are suggesting a 70 mm stem will give the bike weird handling. Weird handling is very undefined?

[bombertodd]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a 70mm stem if it fits either.

[Causidicus]

.

[ace0fclub5]

Re- all the fit advice: The fit I had in February was a 3 hour session with a highly reviewed fitter here in Los Angeles. The changes he made were mainly to my cleat position, he didn't see anything else wrong with my setup.
The knee pain I've experienced is on the front of the joint, it only shows up every once in a while and tends to stick around for a week after longer rides. A quick search relieved that this can be caused by over tightening of the anterior muscles from being too far forward.

As for the 70mm stem, I've gotten used to it for the most part, but I've had some twitchy descents that have concerned me, as well as when I'm sprinting out saddle in the drops.

[Causidicus]

.

[mjduct]

Re- all the fit advice: The fit I had in February was a 3 hour session with a highly reviewed fitter here in Los Angeles. The changes he made were mainly to my cleat position, he didn't see anything else wrong with my setup.
The knee pain I've experienced is on the front of the joint, it only shows up every once in a while and tends to stick around for a week after longer rides. A quick search relieved that this can be caused by over tightening of the anterior muscles from being too far forward.

As for the 70mm stem, I've gotten used to it for the most part, but I've had some twitchy descents that have concerned me, as well as when I'm sprinting out saddle in the drops.

If you are still having use induced pain, your fit isn't dialed, I don't care if Jack Bauer did it over a 24 hour period...

A lot of highly esteemed people are better marketers/ salesman than they are producers if quality products.


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[CBJ]

A 70mm stem will make any road bike a little more 'twitchy' than the manufacturer intended (assuming no extreme reach bars).

However, this is the only thing you need do next:

...you really need to get your position dialled before throwing money at another frame.

Can you please explain how a shorter stem will make the bike more twitchy?

I took this from a different thread:

A shorter stem will give you 'faster' steering. ie the distance which the end of the stem has to travel (along the arc described by the end of the stem) will be shorter ie The angle that is turned is the same, but the distance which the bars move will be less. In short, you have to put in less steering input to turn the wheel.

When people describe steering becoming more twitchy (assuming all other factors remain the same, fork rake, head angle etc) they mean it becomes faster. A 10mm difference won't make a huge difference in the speed of your steering, but could make quite a difference to your comfort.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... p=17044987

[spdntrxi]

I rode my wife's bike 65mm stem .. Down 40+ mph .. Was not twitchy at all.. The bike was all kinds of wrong for me fit wise.. 10mm is no big deal..

[DMF]

Oh lord, can't we end this stem stupidity once and for all...

- a frame with 40mm shorter reach to accommodate a 110mm stem instead of a 70mm stem with the same total reach to bars will also move the front wheel 40mm more rearward, or in another way put your body 40mm further infront of the front wheel. Ponder how THAT affects handling, i.e more "twitchy". And the absolute height of stem stupidity is claiming a short stem will make the bike twitchy without having a single clue about fork rake/angle/trail and bar + lever reach...

70, 90, 110, 130mm stem, they are just numbers that mean absolutely nothing for handling unless you know the bar/lever reach, body weight distribution on the bike (i.e femur length for one big factor!), and ofcourse trail figures which differ hugely between bikes...

Please, please stop spreading the "short stems make for twitchy handling" myth. A shorter stem will make a bike more twitchy, a short stem on its own won't make a bike more twitchy. And re: what a frame is designed for, the same frame fits different people diffidently, again with the body weight distribution between front and rear wheel axles which differs a lot rider to rider. Bikes are sold with 110mm stems out of aesthetic reasons.

Not to mention what is going on in XS and XXS frames head tube angles in order to avoid toe overlap and how that in turn affects handling and how stem length might be taken into consideration with that (along with everything else ofcourse).

End rant.

[Camilo]

Just a couple of comments, and I don't intend to contradict any of the advice to re-check your fit.

If you have long legs, I'm kind of surprised you have a zero setback seat post unless all of that length is in the lower legs as opposed to the femurs. I have longish legs and have found that in general I need quite a bit more setback than many riders with more normal proportions. Surely your fitter and you didn't use a zero setback seatpost to get you further forward because the top tube's too long? As opposed to using saddle setback as the way to get your proper position over the pedals? Just hypothesizing here.

Second, and this is actually my main suggestion: with your long leg/short torso proportions, short of looking at custom frames, you might consider looking at a WSD frame (woman specific design). There's no hard and fast rules, but they often/usually have 1/2 to 1 cm shorter top tubes than their "male" counterparts in the same frame line. Most WSD frames these days have little or no feminine features so other than the WSD decal somewhere on the frame there will be nothing that might cause you concern aesthetically.