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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:06 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:36 am
Posts: 170
Wow. Whether neon yellow is visible because it's bright or because it offers an easy contrast (uncommon color in nature or daily life) doesn't really matter. It succeeds on both counts. It's visible. As I wrote, if you insist on contrast, then ask how often you see neon green on your ride routes - it's an unnatural and exceptional color that will stand out.

I don't mean to disparage your opus, but between manufacturers of neon yellow motorcycle safety gear, road hazard signs, and airfield safety vests, I'm going to say that at least some statistical science agrees with me. http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7444/857

POC has a very nice product. They already offer some very new-wave green colors on their other helmet lines, and I'd like to see a similar option on this helmet... and perhaps a Lazer-style helmet blinky on the back side to cover your six at dawn/dusk.

-Tim


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 8224
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
SpinnerTim wrote:
I don't mean to disparage your opus, but between manufacturers of neon yellow motorcycle safety gear, road hazard signs, and airfield safety vests, I'm going to say that at least some statistical science agrees with me. http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7444/857


Motorcycle Safety Gear? Has patterns, therefore contrast.
Road Hazard Signs? Retro-reflective. High-vis flouro not necessary.
Airfield Safety Vests? Mostly stationary persons, retro-reflective applique is effective, High-vis flouro is secondary to effectiveness.
Why aren't all the moving trucks on the airfield in flouro colour? Hmmm? They're WHITE! To have contrast! Wow.

Did you read the study? Hi-viz wasn't it, it's contrast. Does hi-viz provide contrast? Yes. So does 'white' (which is contrast to environment, unless in snow), so does reflectivity and lights (especially those which flash). Are bright colours in there? Sure. But they're ineffective where it matters most: in the side portion of our eye sight, where most accidents happen (blind spots, not head-on directly in front of the person), where the human eye does not see colour. The study you referenced, like many others, is flawed when they combine reflectivity and flourescent in one lot. Each factor has a completely different affect on visibility. Here's a hint: accidents typically happen when one object is not seen because it is in the 'blind spot' of vision (aka, off the side, not directly in front), and in that portion of our vision we don't see colour, only contrasts to determine movement of objects. A blinking light? Effective. Contrasting pattern? Effective. Solid colour? Doesn't matter what colour it is, without any contrast it won't be effective.

Every time people reference these studies it's confirmation bias, sadly. But, again, if you're interested in this there's a thread to discuss this in.

The POC Helmet is pretty awesome. I've already taken interest in it, tried it on at InterBike and thought highly of it. But to say that flouro colour will be necessary for safety isn't true.

_________________
Exp001 || Other projects in the works.


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1892
Quote:
Cones or rods, it doesn't matter: contrast makes the difference, not colour.

I am not trying to argue 'against' you, and I am willing to consider new info,; but the idea that color doesn't matter (at all ??) just seems to defy all common sense. Doesn't the simple fact that fluorescent yellow (or other wild colors) NOT occur commonly in nature provide contrast against the background, whether it is moving or not ?


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:36 am
Posts: 170
Contrast comes from difference. Pick a color that looks like almost nothing else, urban or rural, and you have difference.

I find it hard to believe that FLUO GREEN doesn't look different enough, and I think POC should make this move. The presence of reflectors on high-viz vests is compliment to the color, an extra measure of safety.


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:05 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 8224
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
Rick wrote:
Quote:
Cones or rods, it doesn't matter: contrast makes the difference, not colour.

I am not trying to argue 'against' you, and I am willing to consider new info,; but the idea that color doesn't matter (at all ??) just seems to defy all common sense. Doesn't the simple fact that fluorescent yellow (or other wild colors) NOT occur commonly in nature provide contrast against the background, whether it is moving or not ?


Color makes contrast, so it does matter, but the point is that Flouro by itself isn't more effective than other colors having contrast when the object is moving under all conditions.

A white safety vest w/ reflective strips on a moving object (read: mostly no constrast to the pattern, solid) is effective when the object is moving, but not as good as any-other-colour-vest w/reflective strips. Standing still? Flouro is o.k. Moving? Not any more effective than any-other-color that creates contrast with the reflective strips.

All of the logic, and examples, that people bring up giving credence to Flouro colours being better than other colours, which both create contrast in a pattern, refer to objects that are relatively stationary. If flouro colours (w/o contrasting elements) were that much more effective in motion - which they are not - every moving object out there that needs to be seen would be flouro. Sorry, it's simply not necessary. Contrast of pattern, created by choice of colours (plural), are more effective.

Therefore POC doesn't NEED to make the Flouro move out of 'safety' concerns. They've done the reality check. White is fine. Orange is fine. In some instances, actually, black can be fine too.

But whatever, some people ride around in safety vests, others want mirrors on their helmets, and some people wear tin foil on their heads to protect themselves from radio waves. Some people still believe that crossing one's eyes will cause them to stay that way permanently, that carbon 'explodes' and so forth.

_________________
Exp001 || Other projects in the works.


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:49 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1892
Quote:
...and some people wear tin foil on their heads to protect themselves from radio waves.


Is there a better method for radio wave protection ? Tin foil fits discreetly under most cycling helmets. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:27 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 7890
Location: San Francisco, CA
comparison of profiles of Octal and Octal Aero. They're basically the same, except the Octal has covered vents:

Image

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Fuji SL/1


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:53 am 
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
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Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
Is the fit exactly the same between the Octal and Octal Aero?

Per the webiste http://www.pocsports.com/en/product/1879/octal and http://www.pocsports.com/en/product/1882/octal-aero
both will be "In store March 2014" and dealers, including in U.S., are listed. As to whether it will actually be available in March (2014, ha ha)?


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 Post subject: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 7890
Location: San Francisco, CA
Palo Alto bikes has them In store. Medium Octal, like medium Prevail, fits my head rely well. I don't fit bell, giro, Louis garneau, or limar. But the crushing disappointment was mass. The US version has an additional crossbar and eyeglass retention thingies. The result is 230, 250, and 270 claimed for small, medium, large. Compare to the VeloNews review: "194 grams in large". We've been through this game before many times going back to the specialized sub6. With Prevail I ordered from uk for the lighter model. I don't know if that tactic is available here. Prevail plastic harness is a point of weakness. Mine snapped eventually. POC looks a bit more robust. But I hate the extra beef. I am sure the euro version is safe enough, with the temple coverage probably among he safest road helmets available.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
http://djconnel.blogspot.com/
Fuji SL/1


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:27 am 
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Posts: 7890
Location: San Francisco, CA
Here's the mass spec:

Image

The added cross-bar is black to keep it subtle:

Image

Price isn't bad, considering Palo Alto Bikes is a premium shop in an area with high rents:

Image

_________________
http://djconnel.blogspot.com/
Fuji SL/1


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:17 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Should we start a new thread, "Helmets with MIPS" ?

Rebuttal to the Bicycling article


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
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Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
djconnel wrote:
Price isn't bad, considering Palo Alto Bikes is a premium shop in an area with high rents:

Image
270.00 USD

That Palo Alto Bicycles price is a full cent below MSRP. Who says they don't discount?


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:13 am
Posts: 852
Location: Utah
It still looks like it says "POO" on the left side of the helmet... but I still kind-of like the helmet :D


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 7890
Location: San Francisco, CA
:lol:

I sent POC an email about the mass increase, which compared to the prototype weighed by VeloNews (194 grams size large) is 86 grams. For a reasonable $/gram (components are at least $4/gram near the top end) that's a huge value decrease for $269.99999. My concern wasn't well received @ Palo Alto Bikes, who has no issue selling "super-high-modulus" carbon frames to guys with guts for an extra $1000 because, you know, you'll never make it up Old La Honda with the Western Wheelers C ride with a bike weighing 80 grams more.

For now, tentative plan is to order from the UK.

_________________
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Fuji SL/1


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 Post subject: Re: POC road helmet
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:53 am 
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Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 9:48 pm
Posts: 243
Please update us on your UK ordering. Do you know any sites that have these in stock now, or planning to have them soon? I didn't see them on the usual suspects.


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