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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:07 pm 
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Shop Owner / Manufacturer

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:24 pm
Posts: 56
Hi Mattias,
That is correct. We are talking about a completely new development though with the two models being pretty different. Just think of Cannondale's SuperSix and SuperSix Evo frames (thinking about it for the first time the name scheme is strikingly similar.. ) where the gap is even bigger.
The Vial (non Evo) has however already been a really great performer as well, which is what we have been trying to build on.
~Nils


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1804
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
AXAxel wrote:
a lateral stiffness of 108 Nm/degree for a size L/56


Hi Nils, how is that measured? I.e. is is the stiffness between the fork dropouts and the rear dropouts, or head tube to rear dropouts, or ??

How does it compare with other frames?


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Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:29 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:24 pm
Posts: 56
Hi Eric,
The lateral stiffness is measured according to Tour-Magazin standards (which have become a widely agreed standard in the industry, though there also are other (valid) methods of measurement; read about the Tour testing protocol here).

Tour's latest light frame test in Dec '13 yielded the following results:
Cannondale SuperSix Evo 91 Nm/deg
Cervelo RCA 94 Nm/deg
Corratec Mauro Sannino Prima 98 Nm/deg
Focus Izalco Max 0.0 102 Nm/deg
Neil Pryde Bura SL 85 Nm/deg
Pasculli Altissimo 94 Nm/deg
Simplon Pavo Ultra 3 81 Nm/deg
Trek Madone 7.9 H1 87 Nm/deg

Feb '14 (Tour 02/2014: light vs. aero)
BMC TimeMachine TMR01 95 Nm/deg
BMC TeamMachine SLR01 101 Nm/deg
Canyon Aeroad CF 9.0 SL 85 Nm/deg
Canyon Ultimate CF SLX 9.0 SL 101 Nm/deg
Cervelo S5 VWD 72 Nm/deg
Cervelo R5 93 Nm/deg
Giant Propel Advanced SL0 92 Nm/deg
Giant TCR Advanced SL 105 Nm/deg
...
Scott Foil Team Issue SL 96 Nm/deg
Scott Addict SL 90 Nm/deg
Simplon Nexio 96 Nm/deg
Simplon Pavo 3 96 Nm/deg
Specialized S-Works Venge 89 Nm/deg
Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL4 119 Nm/deg


All figures courtesy of German Tour-Magazin, http://www.tour-magazin.de
~Nils


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:41 pm 
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Posts: 348
@Nils - does Tour Magazine measure vertical compliance as well? I searched the data, but don't speak German.

If so, how does the Vial Evo stack up?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1804
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
So you're measuring what Tour calls "ride stability"? That is the only test reported in nm/degree.
The link doesn't describe that test very well. All it says is

"In order to determine the exact amount of steering column stiffness, the frame is rotated by 90 degrees and clamped into a test rig on its side. Clamping is done in a manner to realistically simulate normal riding stresses. Instead of the fork, a fork dummy is installed. A defined amount of torsional force is applied, with a dial gauge indicating deflection. TOUR then takes initiated force and torsional deflection to calculate steering column rigidity in newton meters per degree (Nm/degree)."

I can assume that the rear dropout is held fixed and the force is applied to the steel bar in the head tube?

It would seem that too much lateral stiffness would be bad for cornering. MotoGP discovered that a while back. When leaned over the frame needs to flex a certain amount to allow the wheels to move when they go over bumps. I have no idea what the ideal amount would be, but as a tall but light person I expect it'd be lower for me than for the average rider on my size frame.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:15 am 
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Shop Owner / Manufacturer

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:24 pm
Posts: 56
@tharmor: Tour indeed also measures the vertical compliance of the frames (-> see Frame Comfort):
We have not tested the Vial EVO in this test just yet, but are absolutely confident to be doing very well here too as our Vial (non EVO) has yielded the to date best ever comfort figure in Tour Magazin (84N/mm, lower being better, Tour-Magazin 04/2013)

Comparable comfort figures (lower being better):
Light frame (Tour 12.2013)
Cannondale SuperSix Evo Black 164N/mm
Cervelo RCA 141N/mm
Corratec Mauro Sannino Prima 144N/mm
Focus Izalco Max 141N/mm
Neil Pryde Bura SL 109N/mm
Pascualli Altissimo 170N/mm
Simplon Pavo 3 Ultra 135N/mm
Trek Madone 7.9 Hi 159N/mm

Light vs. aero (Tour 01.2014)
BMC TimeMachine TMR01 322 N/mm
BMC TeamMachine SLR01 132 N/mm
Canyon Aeroad CF 9.0 SL 140 N/mm
Canyon Ultimate CF SLX 9.0 SL 92 N/mm
Cervelo S5 VWD 373 N/mm
Cervelo R5 138 N/mm
Giant Propel Advanced SL0 135 N/mm
Giant TCR Advanced SL 142 N/mm
...
Scott Foil Team Issue SL 194 N/mm
Scott Addict SL 129 N/mm
Simplon Nexio 191 N/mm
Simplon Pavo 3 137 N/mm
Specialized S-Works Venge 357 N/mm
Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL4 151 N/mm

Figures courtesy of Tour-Magazin, http://www.tour-magazin.de


eric wrote:
It would seem that too much lateral stiffness would be bad for cornering. MotoGP discovered that a while back. When leaned over the frame needs to flex a certain amount to allow the wheels to move when they go over bumps. I have no idea what the ideal amount would be, but as a tall but light person I expect it'd be lower for me than for the average rider on my size frame.

That is a very good point Eric and actually what we are "preaching" as well. Our boss Axel Schnura has been working in MotoGP for several years and hence is very familiar with that principle. Hence we are also utilizing a different test bench in-house. However as people use to ask for comparable figures it only makes sense to also have one's frame tested according to the same (well accepted) standard (or alternatively to have all the other frames tested on one's own test bench, however raising doubts on the validity due to bias).
This (the desired flex when leaning the bike) actually also is the very point why we do not favour one-piece composite wheels with laminated spokes: Whilst it indeed is a big advantage for lateral stiffness the wheels in effect will also be very stiff vertically (both as the spoke is not adequately able to suspend as well as to "move into" the rim) which will drastically reduce cornering grip and worsen rolling characteristics.
~Nils


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:20 am
Posts: 348
Ok, I'm impressed!

If the decision is made to make a disc brake variant of this frame, it will rise to the top of my list. I genuinely hope it is seriously being considered. (I suggest that you allow the inner-German in each of you to come out. Once this has happened, you all will realize that disc brakes are the most German thing you could do :beerchug: )


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 2098
Location: Denmark
Quote:
This (the desired flex when leaning the bike) actually also is the very point why we do not favour one-piece composite wheels with laminated spokes: Whilst it indeed is a big advantage for lateral stiffness the wheels in effect will also be very stiff vertically (both as the spoke is not adequately able to suspend as well as to "move into" the rim) which will drastically reduce cornering grip and worsen rolling characteristics.


While I agree to a certain point that under certain circumstances it can be beneficial with a frames being able to flex a bit, I call BS on that argument. The amount of vertical flex in wheels is to tiny that it can't have any practical effect on cornering. If you read any study of wheel flex, you can see that any wheel in fact has very little vertical flex. And if the spoke moves into the rim, you are either riding a wheel underbuilt for your size or facing a big problem as you have just hit a major hole in the road. OR, that the rim itself is too soft...
To me it seems like an unneccesary and incorrect lash out to your competitors on the wheel side, LW.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:34 pm
Posts: 1653
Location: New York City
tharmor wrote:
Ok, I'm impressed!

If the decision is made to make a disc brake variant of this frame, it will rise to the top of my list. I genuinely hope it is seriously being considered. (I suggest that you allow the inner-German in each of you to come out. Once this has happened, you all will realize that disc brakes are the most German thing you could do :beerchug: )


Yes, this bike (Vial Evo) with disc brakes and thru axles is a BUY for me! please do through axles, like the x12 so it can be much easier to swap out wheels. it would also create and stiffer/stronger front and rear. you guys know best, but i like the slots on the 142mm thru axles and the front fork with thru axles are soo much better for disc brakes.


Mario Jr. wrote:
Quote:
This (the desired flex when leaning the bike) actually also is the very point why we do not favour one-piece composite wheels with laminated spokes: Whilst it indeed is a big advantage for lateral stiffness the wheels in effect will also be very stiff vertically (both as the spoke is not adequately able to suspend as well as to "move into" the rim) which will drastically reduce cornering grip and worsen rolling characteristics.


While I agree to a certain point that under certain circumstances it can be beneficial with a frames being able to flex a bit, I call BS on that argument. The amount of vertical flex in wheels is to tiny that it can't have any practical effect on cornering. If you read any study of wheel flex, you can see that any wheel in fact has very little vertical flex. And if the spoke moves into the rim, you are either riding a wheel underbuilt for your size or facing a big problem as you have just hit a major hole in the road. OR, that the rim itself is too soft...
To me it seems like an unneccesary and incorrect lash out to your competitors on the wheel side, LW.


im inclined to agree with mario on this one. in motogp there are other variables. for example the bridgestone tires have a harder feel/construction to them than the Michelin's did; thats why they are better on the hard braking. when leaned over chassis flex does allow them to get more grip on the credit card sized contact patch, but i just dont see it applying it to cycling on the wheels. we dont do 60 degree lean angles... maybe if you gave a better explanation as to why it translates to road/mtb/cyclecross. has there been a test on this particular argument?

do wheels affect comfort? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3CD8Eiv1U


Last edited by spytech on Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:55 pm 
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Yes, good point. I second the notion to include thru axles.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:06 am 
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Posts: 257
Location: Covington, WA
yes, absolutely thru-axles!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:34 pm
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Location: New York City
Does the Vial evo have enough space for 28mm tires?

The SRT 28 rim, will be sold as rim also like the SRT 24 and the clincher MTB rim?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:30 pm
Posts: 191
Location: Denmark
Image

Vial Evo with the THM fork - Still on track for 700 g frame for the 56/L model :thumbup:

The picture is from the AX lightness facebook page.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:22 pm 
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Shop Owner / Manufacturer

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:24 pm
Posts: 56
Thanks for the pic Stegger :thumbup:
Here are a couple more impressions:
Image

Image

Image

Image

The frame has been passing the EN fatigue as well as also the crash test at the beginning of the week, so that we are now commencing with the batch production.
As Stegger already quotes the final painted weight pretty exactly matches the targeted weights with the L/56 frame being just shy of 700gms (as well as other prototype sizes falling right into their respective weights as well). We will have exact weights of production frames for each size up shortly.
We have now also been measuring the BB stiffness of the frame (according to Tour-Magazin standards) and are well above 60 N/mm here.



spytech wrote:
Does the Vial evo have enough space for 28mm tires?

The guaranteed tire clearance (for the rim brake version) is for 25mm tires. Issue besides the clearance at the chainstays also being the clearance at the brake. 28mm tires with shallower actual width may work well though.
For the eventual disc version this will indeed likely be revised.
spytech wrote:
The SRT 28 rim, will be sold as rim also like the SRT 24 and the clincher MTB rim?

Ever from this year on our rims are only available as complete wheelsets.
The clincher rims will fall under our ULTRA wheel family for the lightest versions of wheels. Plural for "rim" as there will be two different version, one being the "Ultra Road Clincher 28" weighing ca. 1050gms for a 28mm and 26mm wide rim, the other being the "Ultra Road Clincher 45" with a - as the name suggests - 45mm deep rim and ca. 1210 gms of a weight. All ULTRA wheels come with wheel bags, quick releases and brake pads from now on. Price being Eur 2990 for the Ultra Road Clincher 28 and Eur 3190 for the Ultra Road Clincher 45. We will by the way shortly also have RRPs in US$. :thumbup:
~Nils


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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:22 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:29 pm 
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Location: New York City
that kind of sucks... i dont see the extralite hubs as something of an everyday hub, yes they are light, but not as stiff or durable as other options. i was looking at building the ax wheels with alchemy ul hubs, the mtb clinchers are sold as rims, what is the reasoning behind not selling the srt 28 rims solo? you have a lot of DIY guys out there, that like to customize their wheels based on preference.


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