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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:55 am 
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Location: New York City
corky wrote:
If Nic uses alloy dropouts then it's for a (good)reason....


if ax-lightness or spin and even the new parlee use carbon dropouts then its for good reason.

if you believe he does it for a good reason that benefits you, then you sir are a groupie...

crumpton has a good following im sure i am not offending any dentist by saying this. reason to do alloy drop outs, its cheaper and saves time. spin has been doing carbon drop outs for years!!! erik zabel used a spin with carbon drop outs with no problems. spin was doing full carbon dropout and headtubes before almost anyone.

for $6500 you should get everything that todays modern bikes have plus more (more than just custom geo).


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:55 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:54 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:48 am
Posts: 1022
Sure' it's out of my price range, but I don't see the pricing as outlandish at all. Compared to many high end 'stock' frames with average construction and finish work, it seems like a great price. It includes a great fork, headset, ceramic hybrid BB and a whole lot more option for customisation.


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:41 pm
Posts: 61
on the engineering side, alloy dropouts would have greater damage tolerance than a composite version. If as a builder you considered dropouts to be more safety critical or more susceptible to damage (overstress due to clamping force?), you may elect to continue use of alloy dropouts.

That's completely ignoring any economic, geometry, or manufacturability considerations.


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:59 pm 
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Location: Expat in Washington DC
spytech wrote:
corky wrote:
If Nic uses alloy dropouts then it's for a (good)reason....


if ax-lightness or spin and even the new parlee use carbon dropouts then its for good reason.

if you believe he does it for a good reason that benefits you, then you sir are a groupie...

crumpton has a good following im sure i am not offending any dentist by saying this. reason to do alloy drop outs, its cheaper and saves time. spin has been doing carbon drop outs for years!!! erik zabel used a spin with carbon drop outs with no problems. spin was doing full carbon dropout and headtubes before almost anyone.

for $6500 you should get everything that todays modern bikes have plus more (more than just custom geo).


groupie.... what a stupid comment......

You are coming from one point of view and that is that carbon is the best material for a dropout, I do not agree...... that does not make me a groupie.

NB Modern does not mean better... IMHO


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:18 pm
Posts: 728
Location: Austin
Thanks for the comments fellas. I thought it might be time to chime in for a bit. It is not always about money or "cheaper" as was said. Things cost what they cost and IF carbon drops cost more then you would see it at the MSRP. When the time is right, you might see carbon drops. Honestly, i'm not looking closely enough at them right now. Keep in mind I am one guy with only one full time helper. We are molding all tubes and stays for this T5 in house to a very high standard. We are testing beyond EN14781 cycle fatigue in order to deliver the very best we can. I am also doing all finishing/painting myself. So you see developments sometimes are not about money as much as time in the schedule.

Things are happening at the correct rate of my choosing based on us achieving the quality and repeatability in production necessary before moving on to the next development.

Pricing comparison to date. $6500 may be out of range or liking for many, this is just fine as we can only build 45-50 units per year and the idea of multi year wait lists is not appealing to me.

Crumpton T5 $6500 full custom, f+f+HS+BB
Photon HL $8500 full custom
Parlee Z0 $7800 semi custom?, $8500 custom

ps, It is most certainly not "cheaper" for a 40-50 unit per year shop to submit multiple samples per year to its in house testing. This is just a small part of my level of commitment to quality. This testbed is just online as of last week.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:03 pm 
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Posts: 1651
Location: New York City
corky wrote:
spytech wrote:
corky wrote:
If Nic uses alloy dropouts then it's for a (good)reason....


if ax-lightness or spin and even the new parlee use carbon dropouts then its for good reason.

if you believe he does it for a good reason that benefits you, then you sir are a groupie...

crumpton has a good following im sure i am not offending any dentist by saying this. reason to do alloy drop outs, its cheaper and saves time. spin has been doing carbon drop outs for years!!! erik zabel used a spin with carbon drop outs with no problems. spin was doing full carbon dropout and headtubes before almost anyone.

for $6500 you should get everything that todays modern bikes have plus more (more than just custom geo).


groupie.... what a stupid comment......

You are coming from one point of view and that is that carbon is the best material for a dropout, I do not agree...... that does not make me a groupie.

NB Modern does not mean better... IMHO



My comment was just as stupid as your comment, which was my point. basically you are taking the manufacture at his word and agreeing with it, no questions asked; to me that is stupid. he has already stated that he has not looked into carbon dropouts - "When the time is right, you might see carbon drops. Honestly, i'm not looking closely enough at them right now."

carbon is a great material for dropout as proven by all these carbon frame builders...

appleman bikes - $4000
spin intro - 4000 euro
spin gato - 4600 euro
ax-lightness alpha 5500 euro minus 19%vat if you live in USA
rolo - $7000???


if you make a bike where cost is not the limit (like all these bikes), your going to tell me it will have bonded alloy dropouts??? i think not. this is my opinion, and i am sure the opinion of others. we get into a set cult mentality and are basically set on our way of thinking even if your wrong. their is no wrong or rite here. at this point all these bikes are great, the difference is what you like. they will all do the job and do it well.


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:29 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:18 pm
Posts: 728
Location: Austin
pss, i've done carbon dropouts in the past on various UL projects. it is not like I am blind to the idea.

I don't want to rat-hole on carbon dropouts and miss the opportunity for you to see what is really going on with the T5.

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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Location: Islip, NY
Looks like great work to me. I love that there a few great custom carbon choices out there.

Each builder has their niche and are making killer bikes. Having ridden with Nick I got to listen first hand how passionate he is about his craft and he's always looking for ways to make the bikes better. I'd love to have the same chance to ride with some of the other great builders out there.

Funny thing, I was at a Parlee booth a few months ago. They had a few frames. I though the frame with the beautiful titanium dropouts was their flagship bike only to find out the one with full carbon dropouts was. Shows what I know about dropouts.

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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1712
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I'd like to hear more about how the tubes are made. Do you do different layup for different riders? Did you change how the tubes are bonded together? I thought I read something about that a while back.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 732
Isn't this getting a little obsessive-compulsive here? Nick does amazing bikes. He might not be the only one who does, but each builder has the right to do things his way. I'll keep coming back to Nick. does anyone seriously think that they will win more on a bike with carbon fiber, titanium, or alloy stay-ends? They are all proven technologies. Nick is choosing to evolve other areas of the bike in preference to stay-ends. I have worked with carbon fiber and resin technologies for years and frankly don't get that excited about some of the physical limitations of carbon fiber dropouts, but that didn't make me go to Nick. I go to him because he builds great bikes that race superbly. When someone asks me what I race, I say "a Crumpton," not "a Crumpton with alloy stay ends."


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:42 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:27 pm 
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Location: Atlanta, GA, US
I don't think anyone is questioning Nick's ability to build great bikes. As others have mentioned, other builders have been using carbon dropouts successfully so it is only fair to wonder why Nick is not using them. That said, he came in and clarified his position, and that is all one could ask for.

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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:26 am 
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Location: New York City
exactly, i never questioned his work... just that for the money, you should get something more than bolted/bonded dropouts. even if you did Ti dropout, i still would like a single piece machined dropout vs. a bolted one.

every time i see a bolted dropout it is always associated with a cheaper carbon frame, not a high end quality frame.


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:23 am 
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Posts: 728
Location: Austin
spytech wrote:
exactly, i never questioned his work... just that for the money, you should get something more than bolted/bonded dropouts. even if you did Ti dropout, i still would like a single piece machined dropout vs. a bolted one.

every time i see a bolted dropout it is always associated with a cheaper carbon frame, not a high end quality frame.


Hey spytech, look at it this way. If using metal dropouts of any kind(Ti, alu, steel), without a bolted SS attachment, you need a unique machined part for every geo. I build purely custom geometries. An original drawing for each customer. If I were to machine a custom dropout for each individual frame, to hit the unique angle, the cost to the customer would be more substantial than you could imagine. Fixed angled metal dropouts are for 5, 6 or 7 stock geos. Even a top $$$ C-59 is bolted. Why? because they are made in 1cm increments. 1 piece metal DO is the sign of high volume low SKU production such as a 7 size run of BIG BOX brand X or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:23 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Crumpton T5
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:18 pm
Posts: 728
Location: Austin
eric wrote:
I'd like to hear more about how the tubes are made. Do you do different layup for different riders? Did you change how the tubes are bonded together? I thought I read something about that a while back.

Thanks!


Individual tubes are bladder molded. Tubes are made for the specific bike, rider and they can/do change from one to the next but not as much as you might think. I like to stick with known quantities on laminate schedules to preserve the ride I am familiar with and can stand behind with confidence.

The pic below is of a seat tube prior to closing, and processing with a controlled schedule of inflation pressure and heat. The one below is the chainstay mold.

Image

Image

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