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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:12 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:34 am
Posts: 182
I am looking to build a reliable wheel set.
Me: 79 kg, about 15,000 km and 200,000 m ascent per annum.
I currently use tubulars for most riding, but planning to do more long distance / multi-day riding hence highly reliable clinchers seem more appropriate.
Looking to get 30,000+ km without issues.
Prefer the rim width to be 20 - 21 mm as these will be the same as my tubulars, thus no need to adjust the brake cable length when swapping wheel sets.
I assume the weight will be 1400 - 1500 g.
I am easy on the front wheel, but hard on the rear wheel (known to rip spokes from rims, fracture pawls and flanges as well as demolish bearings :oops: ).
Some thoughts are:
Rims: DT Swiss RR440, Stans Alpha 400, maybe Kinlin XR19W?
Hubs: DT Swiss 240s, Tune Mig70/Mag170, maybe BikeHubStore SL210?
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray or Race
Build: radial 24 hole front, 3x 32 hole rear
Any suggestions for rims, spokes and hubs would be gratefully received.


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Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:12 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Posts: 174
I ride Campy Shamal Ulta 2-way as tubeless and I am happy so far. Never had a puncture (after installing tubeless tires), hubs are reliable, weight is within your target and rim width is close to what you expect. I think they would be more expensive than what you are planning to do, and of course the proprietary spokes would mean more difficult repairs. You may find Fulcrum Racing Zero more easily with a shimano freehub (but virtually the same wheel).

Just my 0.02...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:22 pm 
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Location: Mississippi
I would go all DT.....RR440 28/32 with DT 240 hubs.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:45 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I would use the RR440's too but with Campag record hubs and laser spokes front and race spokes rear with brass nipples, weight would be 1660g. Brass is best for wheels that need to do silly miles. For reliability though, Race spokes on the rear is a good idea. Weight with Lasers all round and brass nipples is 1610g. Alloy nipples saves another 48g. A shimano freehub is available for these lovely hubs, I supply and build with record hubs this way but the steel freehub is another 70g on top I think.

Using CX-rays would not save any weight over using Laserspokes and alloy nipples but it would reduce the stiffness of the wheelset by a little bit. I am not sure why some claim CX-ray's are stiffer than Lasers as that is not what my spoke tension gauge tells me. There is a difference in stiffness which is why at the same tension all my spoke tension gauges show a different deflection value. Also the wheels feel less stiff when built up but not by allot which is good.

Also aero spokes on a 32 spoke wheels is kind of pointless.

If you did what btompskin12 suggested the weight would be with Laser front and Race rear with brass nipples 1603g. Given the 240 hub has a narrow rear flange spacing you may find the rear with Laser a bit flexible (it is not a combo I like). Also 240 flanges have been known to crack so if you are hard on rear wheels this might be a combo to avoid. 240 hubs work best with deep rims.

The record hubs have a wider flange spacing so they work well. Record hubs can come with a shimano freehub but it is heavier as it is steel.

If a light, durable and shimano compatible hubset is needed then why not Shimano Dura Ace 9000, kind of perfect. A build with 28F/32R RR440's, Laser spokes front Race rear and brace nipples with DA hubs would weigh 1663g.

For a wheelset for 30,000km brass is better though. If I were you I would pick the record hub or the DA 9000 hubs with the spokes and nipples I suggested for a wheels that will do 30,000 km without question. Reliability over 30,000 km for rims, spokes and hubs and 1400g weight is not easy to do.

All wheel builders inlcuding myself love building wheels like this as they are built for riding.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:03 am 
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All, thanks for feedback.
bm0p700f, I think you nailed it:
bm0p700f wrote:
.. Shimano Dura Ace 9000, kind of perfect. A build with 28F/32R RR440's, Laser spokes front Race rear ...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:49 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I know I am building a set for a customer next week, he is going to love them as would you if you got them built.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:31 am 
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Feedback on this older thread now that over 20,000 km ridden on them.
Initially went with Shimano DA 9000, 28F/32R RR440's, Laser spokes x3 28 front, Race x3 32 rear.
After a few longer rides, decided to swap the front hub over for a SP dynamo.
After 20,000 km:
  1. One spoke broke on the rear (acceptable). I need to re-true a small wobble. Happy with the rear wheel.
  2. Just started regularly breaking spokes on the front wheel. (now unacceptable)

I think the root cause of the front wheel starting to break spokes is
  1. the front hub (SP dynamo) is only 50mm wide flange-to-flange
  2. the spoke tension was set to 100 kgf
These have combined to fatigue the spokes and eventually (now) fail.

To overcome this I am going to rebuild with new spokes, this time to 120 kgf
Note: I always had a spare spoke when riding, so only held me back 5 min when replacing the broken one.

thanks for advise bm0p700f :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:36 am 
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Great review with a lot of good empirical data.

I just don't understand, why spokes break on a 28/32 wheelset with your weight. But sounds like you got some very cheap and reliable kms...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:44 am 
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Multebear wrote:
...I just don't understand, why spokes break on a 28/32 wheelset ...

The SP PV-8 dynamo hub has a flange-to-flange dimension of 50mm whereas more normal hubs are around 70mm.
This narrow flange-to-flange dimension places a higher than normal cyclical load on the spoke elbow.
I am hoping I can reduce the cyclical part of it by increasing the tension.
If SP develop a light, reliable dynamo that is ~70mm wide, they will have lots of demand.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:23 am 
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^makes sense, since you almost had no problems with the rear wheel.

I'm curious why you run a SP Dynamo hub? Do you ride a lot in the dark?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:37 am 
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Multebear wrote:
I'm curious why you run a SP Dynamo hub? Do you ride a lot in the dark?

Yes, often do 600km rides and forget to stop, so around 30 hrs including coffee breaks.
I only do it over a weekend, not like the http://www.transcontinental.cc/ riders, 1 to 2 weeks, kudos.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:13 pm 
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Impressive :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:38 pm 
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Posts: 781
Location: Ruidoso, NM
thprice wrote:
I think the root cause of the front wheel starting to break spokes is
  1. the front hub (SP dynamo) is only 50mm wide flange-to-flange
  2. the spoke tension was set to 100 kgf
These have combined to fatigue the spokes and eventually (now) fail.

To overcome this I am going to rebuild with new spokes, this time to 120 kgf


I don't agree with your assessment. The most likely cause is a lack of stress relieving. 100kg is plenty of tension on the front.

Spokes are breaking at the J?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:13 pm 
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Posts: 2022
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I've had spokes break at the elbow when laced radially on hubs that had too much countersink on the spoke holes. That left the elbows unsupported.

If that's the case on your hubs, you can use spoke washers or lace heads in (the countersink being on the outside). The latter increases bracing angle a bit making a slightly stiffer wheel.

I agree 100kgf is plenty on the front.


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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:13 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:41 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Try a son 28 dynamo hub. A much better hub with better bracing angles. The tension you have in the front is enough. The problem may be the hub bracing angles. In sufficient stress relieving would surely show up sooner. Maybe try race spoke front. I only use a very stiff rim and race spokes when asked to build with the sp hub.

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