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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:24 pm 
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Location: Victoria, BC Canada
mike t's site is horrible and dated. Free, sure. To build a great durable wheel you need balanced tension. His credo is all you need is a spoke wrench and nothin more. Whatever. Modern materials demand precision. There is no room for guessing. And his crap about flange hole offset is misinformation. The flange diameter input for spoke length calculation, a mathematical calculation uses the PCD, not the total flange diameter.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:45 pm 
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I'm with WmW and Zen... muss on is decent. schraner is dated, opinionated and misinformed and complicates lacing technique. Musson's book is decent and recent with a revision just published. I Agee, Ric's WheelFanatyk web site is a good source of thoughtful information, and he manufactures my favourite tensiometer. There is something of a culture of lore in wheel building that in the 21st century has no place, in my view. Jobst Brandt's book is a must read to if anything explain lacing in an easy repeatable way without counting spoke holes for various crossings.

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Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:45 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:46 am 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I have always used Schraner lacing method. I do not have to count spoke holes any more I just know where the spoke go. Far simpler method in my view than the other. The other books I have never read as I worked out all the details for myself by thinking about the physics of a wheel. I am sure other folk can do this for themselves too. If you work out what works from base principles then lore well you won't have any of that. I sometimes get asked to tie and solder as that make a stiffer wheel..... lore.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:48 am 
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Location: Ruidoso, NM
My lacing method is to line up the hub relative to the rim, count over the number of crosses on the flange, insert spoke in hub and rim... continue till done.

Does it need to be more complicated?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Wheel
My joke ended up to be quite stiff MF, laterally almost as stiff as 32h front wheel.
DS 0x heads in DT revolution, NDS 4X DT alpineIII


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:02 pm 
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manninen wrote:
Wheel
My joke ended up to be quite stiff MF, laterally almost as stiff as 32h front wheel.
DS 0x heads in DT revolution, NDS 4X DT alpineIII

Hi manninen, is that a 40H hub/rim combination ... thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:43 pm 
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36H saint hub. Still not sure what ox DS lacing is supposed to achieve. 3x or 4x both sides would have made a fine wheel.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:34 am 
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I would suggest that the 0x HeadsIn DS lacing is supposed to achieve maximum Bracing Angle (intended for lateral stiffness), but that is at the expense of Torque Control (Drive) which the NDS will need to control (aka Mavic Style) ...

thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:15 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I have built some 1x heads in DS wheels and even tried 2x heads in DS. The latter was beautifully stiff but the spokes hit the derailleur cage when climbing in the largest cog (but not on the workstand, go figure). Eliminating the cross would increase the derailleur clearance and not change the bracing angle much. The Saint hub has a large diameter shell so it won't twist, and 4x NDS transmits the torque.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:39 pm 
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I've done lots with radial heads in DS. I really like it as it builds into a fine and very stiff wheel.
DS flange strength can be an issue though, you need a hub with plenty of meat outside the spoke hole.
1X heads in is also a nice build, but you do need to select your spokes carefully so the cross is on the flat part of a bladed spoke or the rear mech clearance can be a pain.
I'm actually just measuring up to do the same build on a pair of LEW 45mm rims right now. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:59 pm 
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36H saint hub on the rim he used will be quite stiff enough. 3x or 4x though so the gains here are vanishingly small, that's my point. On hubs it may be needed to get the bracing angle up but in that case use a different hub that has the bracing angles you want for the build. There is enough choice out there.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:42 am 
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Moving over spoke tension onto the NDS is what its all about, not just increasing the width.
I wouldn't agree with your comment that the differences would be very small.
In my experience the heads in pattern on the DS does make quite a bit of difference with the tension sharing between sides....and that can only be a good thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:08 am 
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Yes the spoke tension on the NDS is increased but not buy alot (I have done the sums) and the tension balance on these hubs is something like 55-60% if a 3x pattern is used both sides. An off centre rim would raise the balance even further if that is what is wanted.

so while the build done is interesting it does not make the wheel "better" just different. Plenty of other way to get a similar result without using radial lacing on the DS. I am just not a fan esecpially with 36H hubs as it is a risk for the hub cracking.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:46 am 
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Yes, 0x DS, poor NDS tension ratio (<60%, especially <50%) and high DS spoke tension requires a strong DS flange and rim (Mavic Style) :)

thanks KL :)


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Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:46 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:31 pm 
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I would not call 50% to 60% tension balance poor. I have found 45% is enough is the NDS bracing angle is high enough and there is a suitable spoke count and rim to complement the rider.

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