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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Mattr, thanks! Never realized about the shift gates actually... Just for curiosity, as you write "...and so on", what else is there besides the three things you already mentioned?

I'm completely OCD about maintenance so the wear and tear issues wouldn't really concern me, but all in the interest of 'the more you know' :)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
mattr wrote:
Just out of interest, which shop is it, as the half dozen or so I've tried in the area, only one has managed to get me to go back. (That's Uddevalla, Trollhättan and Göteborg)


Jon at BikePlace. He got mad skills both on an off bike.

bikerjulio wrote:
As for OP's pictures. I went and looked at a new RD and it's pretty much the same as pic 1. Obviously pic 2 shows chain rub which I would attribute to either poor RD setup, wrong chain, or both. An 11-speed chain should measure 5.5mm across the pins. Suggest a check.


I can confirm that I do use a 11 speed chain that measure 5.5mm in width. Can you upload a picture of your derailleur similar to how I photographed mine? It would be highly appreciated, as I am stuck between either using the new derailleur or sending it back. Thanks in advance.


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Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:00 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:33 pm 
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The one I had on hand was a 10-speed, but looks similar in the slight mis-alignment of the jockey wheels.

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:34 pm 
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To the OP, what precisely is the shifting problem? I understand you have nagging doubts about your Campag kit but having read your posts I am not clear what the precise problem is. Does it shift or not?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Miller wrote:
To the OP, what precisely is the shifting problem? I understand you have nagging doubts about your Campag kit but having read your posts I am not clear what the precise problem is. Does it shift or not?


OP complains of chain rub which can be seen in his second picture.

OP I'd agree that clearance from the inside of the upper jockey looks tight. Is the shield in place on the inside of the jockey wheel? (the silver disc at the centre).

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There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:45 pm 
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My intention was never to talk down Campagnolo. And yes, I've had issues with shifting. As seen on one of the pictures, I had extensive chain rub after only 80-something kilometers.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:11 pm 
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What about my question? Is everything in place? If the inner shield on the jockey was omitted in assembly, the RD might look like yours.

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There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Yes. The shield was in place.

Ok, so Campagnolo derailleurs are not aligned in regards to jockey wheels. And it seems that my initial derailleur was extreme in this misalignment.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:35 pm 
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DMF wrote:
what else is there besides the three things you already mentioned?
TBH, you'd have to ask shimano or campag themselves, it's nearly 20 years since I did my tech training. I'd not even swear there were more than the three I've mentioned.......


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Your derailleur looks fine on the pictures. It could be that its not setup right. It could be that it has a defect, but I would highly doubt you would get 2 defective derailleurs in a row. That would be very unlucky.

If like you said that the shop tried to realign the derailleur, I highly doubt the competence of the mechanic. You should never do that. You would make things worst. If a derailleur is defective you send it back to get warranty. Where I work we install alot of Athena and never seen or heard the problem you are describing. The chain can rub the cage on occasion if you do alot of cross chaining.

I would suggest you get a new derailleur and go to another mechanic which is known to be good setting up campy 11 speed and see how it goes. I would not use the derailleur that the mechanic tried to realign.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:45 pm 
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ferrarista wrote:
(...) If a derailleur is defective you send it back to get warranty. (...)


Agreed. As I bought it from a german webshop, the last thing on my mind was to send it back. The urge to get on the bike was to big. I'm a father of 14 month old twins, so the last thing I have is time to sit around and wait for bike gear.

Fortunately, the webshop accepted to take it back and "have a look at it".


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Hi all

The OPs RD is normal - the two jockeys do not lie in exactly the same plane.

DO NOT try and bend the cage so that they align - not only will this usually end in tears, insofar as it's damn-nigh impossible to get the two jockeys aligned but in any case, it *really* won't shift correctly, then ...

Carbon cages also resist in the most expensive possible way.

Any dealer that tries this on a new RD needs his / her head examined - if in doubt it should be sent to the nearest Campag Service Centre - we all have jigs to check RD alignments. Any other course of action voids warranty.

Cases of chain rub on the inside of the upper jockey in the large sprockets can be caused by the RD hanger being correctly aligned vertically, but "toed in" with respect to the centre line of the frame - so the hanger is not "bent" so much as "twisted". The common situation is that when viewed from the top, the hanger is twisted anti-clockwise. This usually results from the hanger being straightened in the vertical plane, but the fixing of the hanger not being in the same plane as it is being bent.

Back in the year dot when index systems were really new, if I recall correctly, Shimano used to recommend that the hanger *was* toed in to a slight degree. Can't find a reference for it now, so that may be a delusion bought on by old age!

Anyhow, back in 2013 - On the smaller sprockets this tendency towards a slight anticlockwise twist doesn't cause so much of an issue as the chain runs "free" of the jockey past less of the cage. On the bigger sprockets, as the cage pivots forwards, the point on the jockey where the chain meets it changes and there is more free chain running closely adjacent to the derailleur cage, and so rub can occur. If you have an old, tired RD with a lot of slop in the upper pivot, you can simulate this by just twisting the RD on it's mounting.

There is a "sweet zone" of cable tension / chain run over the sprockets and into the RD cage where the chain will run cleanly off the sprockets and over the jockeys smoothly rather than a "sweet spot". Many team mechanics will play with the set-up of a RD to allow fractionally quicker shifting down the gears, to the bigger cogs for climbers that want the quickest possible shift, or the other way for sprinters who want a quicker shift the other way, and for the shift to have minimum lag under load.

If the set-up of the RD is done "a la grimpeur", i.e. with the chain tending to run slightly more towards the wheel side of that sweet zone, pulling the floating jockey all the way towards the inner plate of the jockey cage, the problem of a slightly "anticlockwise" twisted hanger is exacerbated. Of the cable tension is set a little more "a le sprinter" the problem is less, as in that case, the chain is running towards the other extreme of the sweet zone, away from the wheel and away from the inner jockey plate.

11s is a bit fussier in this respect than 10s and a whole lot more so than 8 or 9s ever was, not unnaturally - the sprockets are spaced closer and especially around the middle of the cassette where the angular movement of the chain is least, greater precision is required in every element of the assembly and set-up.

HTH
Graeme
Velotech Cycling Ltd
Main Campagnolo Service Centre, UK

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Very good explanation Graeme!

I totally forgot about the RD hanger. Most of the problems comes from that.

cheers

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:59 pm 
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I just assembled the second Athena derailleur after reading through this tread, deciding that it was not defect... 8) It works much better in the workbench than the first one. Hopefully I'll find time to test this one on the road tomorrow.

Anyhow, I feel that the first derailleur was defect as the cage was way off both before and after the imposition by the bike shop.

Regarding the workshop bending the cage, I hope that you all understood that he dismantled the cage and only tried to bend it. I decided that bending it was the best way to go considering the circumstances, trying to get the jockey wheels a tiny bit more aligned.

After some kilometers I threw in the towel and asked if it was ok for me to return the derailleur, not for a refund, just for a confirmation that the angle of the upper pulley is incorrect. I can only hope that they send me a replacement. In that case, I have two derailleurs.

I just want to ride. Even if it's in swedish autumn weather.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:21 pm 
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A bit off topic, but I personally had a bit of a problem with Campagnolo shifting reliability (repeatability) in general... sometimes I would shift from (for eg) the 15t to the 16t and it would go no worries, shift back to the 15t no worries, shift back to the 16t and it would chatter and not shift, click back to remain in the 15t and then attempt the shift up again - no worries. This problem was not exclusive to those particular gears either. The groupset was a 2013 Campagnolo SR groupset and had very few kms on it...

TBH, I sold the bike and went back to my old bike which had an Ultegra 6600/7800 mix... it shifted more reliably... albeit with less comfortable hoods and less powerful brakes...

I wanted to love Campagnolo like so many others... but to truly love something, I have to love with my head as much as my heart... head said no.


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:21 pm 


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