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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:31 pm 
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I'd personally be slightly concerned about the clamp corners which come into contact with your bar. They look rather sharp, and could possibly dig into a carbon bar?

May be worth adding a radius to the edges.

Otherwise this is a very promissing concept. I'd like to see an anodised black version 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:54 pm 
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It's been a while since I've logged on, but I tried hard to remember my password and got it. I just wanted to come back to post in this thread. I like the looks of the stem and am interested to see more.

I'm also interested in a black anodised version.

I just splurged on a Ritchey Superlogic seatpost, but I'd be interested in purchasing a matching black anodised seatpost for this stem - as long as weight, durability, and competitive pricing is there.

How does it fair in a crash? That's the reason I'm hesitant to go carbon stem. Obviously nothing is bomb proof, but if the seatpost is more secure than the Superlogic after a wreck - I'm even more interested (not that I have or plan on wrecking my Superlogic).

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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:54 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:20 pm 
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love the efficient design look. A big virtue to CNC is that you can get much closer to theoretical material limits if the processes are very highly repeatable, which they should be with CNC. And there's a ton more flexibility to offer different angles and lengths.

How does the surface treatment effect the material stresses? I presume that if you are anodizing the material, you need to add back a tiny bit of safety margin (though I don't know this), but it might provide better long term reliability. What is the surface treatment plan i.e. finish availability?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:55 pm 
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There's pretty much the same thread over in MTB topics, and I posted the same thing there....

"Wow!, this is great... its the lightest stem ever Charlie Brown... creak, creak... hey, what's that sound... CRACK! BANG! THUD!... WTF!!"

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:19 pm 
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I find it funny how one picture of a stem elicits so many responses. Thank you all for the compliments and other feedback too. It helps me to understand how the target the market a bit better.

Calnago wrote:
"Wow!, this is great... its the lightest stem ever Charlie Brown... creak, creak... hey, what's that sound... CRACK! BANG! THUD!... WTF!!"
I'll do you one better. With such a remark, you should become our unofficial test rider! Judging by your bikes, I would estimate you to be taller and heavier than the average rider, therefore it's even more important that a part is stiffer and holds up better to abuse. :thumbup: While I weigh only about 70kg/155lbs, I've experienced first hand (catastrophic) failures with some of the strongest bars (RaceFace AirAlloy) and even some of the “supposed” strongest cranks (VumaQuads, XT). Fortunately, I survived unscathed. Feel free to PM me to respond to this limited and exclusive offer.

justkeepedaling wrote:
I'd personally be slightly concerned about the clamp corners which come into contact with your bar.
I was too, especially with carbon bars and forks, therefore I came up with a solution of shallow chamfers that flare outward from the clamp surfaces for the bars and forks. This largely prevents the fibers from developing notches, thus should this stem be safe enough not to compromise the safety of its adjoining components. Though difficult for some to see, the chamfer is detectable with a finger.

justkeepedaling wrote:
I'd prefer a great forged part to a great cnc'd part. Once again: forging improves the material properties. Machining does not
There are superior alloys that can be more easily machined than forged plus, just like @spud said, a great number of many surface treatments improve material properties on a machined part that compensate for not being forged.


@HammerTime2: Wert (wûrt) is pronounced similar to "word"(wûrd), which phonetically sounds much different than "wart"(wôrt). This is what at least one German-English dictionary says: Wert {m}: worth/value/virtue/figure (math.)/account/worthiness/price/quality [value, worth]/sign/ups

With such a meaning Wert Cycling can't sound that bad, right? I mean, no one has control over who will mock their name. For example, one brand sells a road frameset with a name that sounds like "vile".

And yes, steel cranks, because of the ride quality and superior strength and stiffness over other materials! ;)
Image

@shoopdawoop, Devon,THSdrummer: The prototype is raw, meaning unfinished and straight out of the CNC machine. Production units will only be offered in black anodized for the time being. Combined with anodization, it'll have a surface treatment that increased fatigue life up to 9%. As much as it would be cool to offer colors, it's just added complexity for running a business. Once business picks up though, the colour question can always be reviews.


I just want to remind people that these days it's unacceptable to release a component that doesn't at least hold up to the same standards, and preferably exceeds it with a greater margin than the competitions. Though often, less material means compromising certain properties, weight in itself is in no wise a reflection on stiffness, strength or durability/safety of use. My aim is to prove that proper engineering can offer better performance, greater reliability and higher stiffness while using less material.

For all you people interested in knowing more about stems, here's an insightful article: http://www.biketechreview.com/stems/summary.htm Though it contains slightly dated examples, the principles it addresses still hold true today.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:06 pm 
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very interesting article on stems. the failures in this test were mostly down to fasterner/mfg defects i.e stress risers at fastening points, or undersize threads/insufficient thread engagements. Though I suspect mfg has gotten better since those stems were produced.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Myth, you have skills dealing with people as well as engineering and designing. Here's to you :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:00 pm 
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mythical wrote:
I find it funny how one picture of a stem elicits so many responses. Thank you all for the compliments and other feedback too. It helps me to understand how the target the market a bit better.

Calnago wrote:
"Wow!, this is great... its the lightest stem ever Charlie Brown... creak, creak... hey, what's that sound... CRACK! BANG! THUD!... WTF!!"
I'll do you one better. With such a remark, you should become our unofficial test rider! Judging by your bikes, I would estimate you to be taller and heavier than the average rider, therefore it's even more important that a part is stiffer and holds up better to abuse. :thumbup: While I weigh only about 70kg/155lbs, I've experienced first hand (catastrophic) failures with some of the strongest bars (RaceFace AirAlloy) and even some of the “supposed” strongest cranks (VumaQuads, XT). Fortunately, I survived unscathed. Feel free to PM me to respond to this limited and exclusive offer.


@Mythical: Thanks for the offer, and you are correct that I am not exactly your 150lb featherweight. I am 6'1", approaching 200lbs/90kg, and use a 130mm stem. As such I often eschew the lightest of components because at some point, I do believe a risk factor comes into play that I don't want to mess with. I got rid of some very light carbon wheels after a near death experience descending off a mountain pass at 45+mph. There are some components, like a super light stem cap which makes no difference to anything structurally. No problem with that. But a stem, and bars... are the last places I want to be a guinea pig for something. So, sorry... even if you paid me I would not feel comfortable testing something like this. That's not to say I wouldn't come around after extensive testing with much heavier riders than myself, as well as lab tests to failure, etc., and knowing how many cycles to failure something like that can withstand, proved that it was indeed safe. Hopefully you have and will test it extensively in a lab situation before you get real folks to try it out for you.
Sometimes I see figures thrown about with ratios of say strength/weight like "this material has a much higher strength/weight ratio than this other material. Which is fine, but there is an absolute number I'd like to know as well. Take the classic example of an ant, with a strength/weight ratio which is hard to believe as it can carry things several times it's own weight. Much stronger strength/weight ratio than I could or would ever be able to produce but I could squash that ant without much trouble. Maybe a bad example, but you get my drift. Ratios can be fine, but in the real world you need to deal with absolutes as well.
However, kudos to people such as yourself who try to extend the limits and I wish you luck. But myself, being larger, would shy away from something for my own safety until quite a long period of successful tried and true experience has passed.
So, that's kinda the long winded version of what I was saying previously, in kind of tongue in cheek fashion, but not really.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:50 pm 
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There's more you can do to differentiate yourself from the competition.... offer it in different angles..... -12, -8,-4.... the numberof -10 deg stems is a v.small pool. you could do different lengths too ,...105,115,125.....
don't put on ugly 'flip/flop' graphics ie. that you can read whichever way up the stemis flipped.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:00 pm 
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@ Calnago, I understand your sentiment about what the stem will and won't do in regard to weight and strength but I'm all about the wait and see. If it passes all appropriate/necessary testing then it's good to go, if not, then so be it. To be fair, although 90kgs is heavy, its not that heavy. My best friend is 95kgs and is as strong as an ox in his upper body but I can out pace him on a bike at 20kgs lighter and have far more strength in my legs. I've never been a fan of the whole 'weight limit' on bike parts, it's fairly irrelevant other than may be for something like a seatpost and saddle although to be fair it's probably the only guide that can be used.

I quite like the look of this stem, the only concern I have is as it's supposedly so light, why hasn't it been done before? It's not a new material and cncing is common place now. May be it's just about pushing the limits in which case Calnago may be right in being concerned.

@THSdrummer, why the concern about a carbon stem in a crash? I have a Deda Forza on my commuter bike that has been through a number of crashes so far without even a mark. I would guess because the bars absorb most of the impact.

Regarding the steel cranks, yes, I do like steel as a material for cranks although I still think (unsurprisngly) that nothing surpasses carbon fibre for weight vs stiffness in a crankset. The Clavicula to me is still the benchmark. I'm sure I've seen the picture of those cranks doing the rounds before though Mythic and in carbon form as well. Are these cranks actually going to be produced or is it just a bit of a dream still?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:57 pm 
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mythical wrote:
Image

@shoopdawoop, Devon,THSdrummer: The prototype is raw, meaning unfinished and straight out of the CNC machine. Production units will only be offered in black anodized for the time being. Combined with anodization, it'll have a surface treatment that increased fatigue life up to 9%. As much as it would be cool to offer colors, it's just added complexity for running a business. Once business picks up though, the colour question can always be reviews.

For all you people interested in knowing more about stems, here's an insightful article: http://www.biketechreview.com/stems/summary.htm Though it contains slightly dated examples, the principles it addresses still hold true today.


I'm afraid I might be failing to read this correctly. The offering will be black anodized or not? I might just be misinterpreting " increased fatigue life" as meaning it degrades faster.

I'll give that article a read.

Those cranks look fantastic. I haven't been around a whole lot, are those your design?

stephen@fibre-lyte wrote:

@THSdrummer, why the concern about a carbon stem in a crash? I have a Deda Forza on my commuter bike that has been through a number of crashes so far without even a mark. I would guess because the bars absorb most of the impact.


I suffer from reading general posts on online bike forums. In reality, I imagine carbon fiber is stronger than it is made out to be, and the local mechanic has stressed that CF does have an unfair bias against it. I just am not enthused to go with a CF stem just yet. I did just pick up a Ritchey W260 stem in both 100mm and 110mm, so I'm not really in to big of a need for a new stem just yet. Just waiting for it to arrive to compare it to my Cannondale C2. Should shave some grams.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:27 pm 
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That's fair enough. If you're happy with alloy stems there's no reason to go with a carbon one instead but if you like the idea of a carbon stem then you shouldn't be put off. There's a lot of great stems out there, both alloy and carbon.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:51 pm 
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totoboa wrote:
Myth, you have skills dealing with people as well as engineering and designing. Here's to you :beerchug:
Thank you for your kind words. Feel free to PM me. :beerchug:
spud wrote:
Though I suspect mfg has gotten better since those stems were produced.
Yes and no. This stem could've been prototyped a few years ago. It's rather my own insight that needed improving and, through advancements in CAD/CAM and CNC-machining, my experience and understanding of the process increased. Nowadays, the multi-tasking mill turn lathes that this stem will be produced on are more commonplace and so is experience in operating them, thus cost price has come down to a more affordable level. For example, what Extralite accomplished all these years is often highly underrated and I highly respect Sergio and Alessandro's efforts.

Calnago wrote:
There are some components, like a super light stem cap which makes no difference to anything structurally. No problem with that. But a stem, and bars... are the last places I want to be a guinea pig for something. So, sorry... even if you paid me I would not feel comfortable testing something like this. That's not to say I wouldn't come around after extensive testing with much heavier riders than myself, as well as lab tests to failure, etc., and knowing how many cycles to failure something like that can withstand, proved that it was indeed safe. Hopefully you have and will test it extensively in a lab situation before you get real folks to try it out for you.
I get where you're coming from. It goes without saying that I would never purposely endanger your life. More than once have I been in a state of certain death, though I wouldn't even wish these dreadful experiences upon my worst enemies (and I don't consider anyone my enemy). Nevertheless, my offer entails that you'll receive one of the first production units that will have met all testing requirements generally accepted in the bike industry. That means that it'll adhere to the same standards as the stems you ride now. It's in your right to refuse.

stephen@fibre-lyte wrote:
Regarding the steel cranks, yes, I do like steel as a material for cranks although I still think (unsurprisngly) that nothing surpasses carbon fibre for weight vs stiffness in a crankset. The Clavicula to me is still the benchmark. I'm sure I've seen the picture of those cranks doing the rounds before though Mythic and in carbon form as well. Are these cranks actually going to be produced or is it just a bit of a dream still?
I consider Dura-Ace, Red Exogram and Super Record the benchmarks, though THM did a fantastic job with a carbon crank that's been around for a decade now. I know I can design better than the ones already made, I just don't have the resources at the moment. That steel crankset represents an investment of nearly a quarter million euros since 2006, and that design hasn't been translated into production due to too many factors being outside my capacity to resolve. Should Fibre-Lyte wish to make a carbon stem, I still got a couple of ideas that I'm sure you could work with and so far haven't been realized. Just saying.

corky wrote:
There's more you can do to differentiate yourself from the competition.... offer it in different angles..... -12, -8,-4.... the numberof -10 deg stems is a v.small pool. you could do different lengths too ,...105,115,125.....
don't put on ugly 'flip/flop' graphics ie. that you can read whichever way up the stemis flipped.
Sure, custom lengths, angles and graphics are no problem. It'll require a surcharge to cover the added costs and extra time and effort. To keep stock of a plethora or lengths, angles and colors is simply unmanageable, therefore the first available Straight Shooters stems will be black anodized in length variations between 80-130mm with an angle of ±7.5º. Anything else is custom. Later on, we might also release standard lengths in -17º. Our first priority is to launch an awesome product onto the market and expand our range gradually and organically.


A little backstory: I grew up in an era where Ringlé, Cook Bros, Machine Tech, Kooka, Magic Motorcycle, Grafton, Sweet Parts etc. embodied the coolest parts. Many top mountainbike pro's were racing them. Since the turn of the millennium, it seemed that the bike industry moved away from such brands and moved to more generic equipment with engineering getting better and mass manufacturing become cheaper. Suddenly, high-end wasn't bleeding edge anymore.

Wert Cycling should be considered an attempt to revive the cottage industry CNC-machined components, except with unprecedented levels of engineering and manufacturing. Wert Cycling basically follows the same development proces as used in F1. The accomplished weights by no means make my parts less safe than others, since they undergo the same testing as e.g. your average 3T or Ritchey equivalents.

Tom Ritchey, as well as the owner of 3T, are personal acquaintances of mine. Both tried to hire me. Part of me wanted to work with them but my urge to develop parts and succeed on my own terms prevailed. I may not have their resources, but I do my utmost to give big brands a run for their money and offer rides an cool alternative, like in the old days.

After dozens of design iterations, my initial prototype was done and it had some flaws. Upon examination, these issues were analyzed and subsequently resolved. For example, the previous (2nd) generation 150mm prototype developed a small and barely noticeably crack at the handlebar clamp at around 86,000 of 100,000 cycles. Test over. Back to the drawing board. However the unlikelihood of a rider to experience such an issue, my stem needs to survive the test. The solution: increase wall thickness with more than 250% and smoothen the transition to the clamp, thus eliminating this stress concentration. Additionally, the OD of the main section slightly decreased from Ø40mm to Ø37.5mm, partly because the tested stem felt too stiff and created a harsh front end feel.

I expect a future Wert customer to notice a solid and feeling inspiring confidence in their Straight Shooter stem. Not only does it look more massive, it'll hold up under the same abuse as others, perhaps even better. With its high torsional and vertical rigidity, this stem can be especially appreciated when sprinting and climbing out of the saddle. I hope that this stem paves the way for more bike parts with the same level of passion and commitment to bridging the gap between perception and reality, and also performance and attainability.

I hope weight weenies everywhere can appreciate the work already invested. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:52 pm 
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Good luck to yer..... and keep posting your developments here please....


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Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:52 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:34 pm 
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mythical wrote:
I consider Dura-Ace, Red Exogram and Super Record the benchmarks, though THM did a fantastic job with a carbon crank that's been around for a decade now. I know I can design better than the ones already made, I just don't have the resources at the moment. That steel crankset represents an investment of nearly a quarter million euros since 2006, and that design hasn't been translated into production due to too many factors being outside my capacity to resolve. Should Fibre-Lyte wish to make a carbon stem, I still got a couple of ideas that I'm sure you could work with and so far haven't been realized. Just saying.


Interesting, why those cranksets as the benchmarks? On a stiffness vs weight comparison the Clavicula is way out in front. Combine that with incredible good looks and amazing engineering and I'll be looking forward to hearing why the Dura Ace crankset could be considered a benchmark. I always imagine the benchmark to be the one that all others aspire to be like?

Quarter of a million euro investment on a crankset that isn't yet for sale and after seven years of development doesn't look too close to being for sale yet either......you're either very wealthy or know some people that are. I can't imagine that kind of investment without a planned return. You're a braver man than I! :D As for the stem, it's most likely not a route that we would consider going, we don't have the capacity amongst other factors. I think the market is also pretty much swamped so unless it will be something spectacular it would be better concentrating on the one you're currently working with. If that sells, then may be the carbon one will be an option.


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