"PRO" Cycling Discussion

[pastronef]

thanks to SRM (and Horner?) to release power data, cleaning the pretty screaming "data" newspapers like Gazzetta try to pass to make people even more suspicious with information like "the best VAM ever!", clearly not considering that it's a nonsense because VAM values must be correlated to climbing time and grade other than being affected by numerous variables.
If Nibali has not been there contending they'd probably not have released any VAM or any interpretation on them...
I, and I guess more among us, would like more real data, c'mon SKY, Froome, Nibali, ecc...

grazie Roberto, well said

[pastronef]

the Inner Ring ‏@inrng 14 Set

Also, via @FranReyesF, the article mentions possibility of Vodafone (Vuelta sponsor already) + Cervélo supplying the bikes
and FIAT as sponsor

for Alonso Team

[airwise]

@ Pren again.

Sorry but I think you will find the UK athletes have faced numerous in competition tests whereas Horner mysteriously disappeared for six months prior to re emerging as a world beater.

Now Froome did the same in 2011 so question arks could be aimed fairly at him. But he maintained his form for the next two years. It will be interesting to see if Horner clan do the same.

As for logic, it is illogical to suggest that there is a history of British athletes en mass being guilty of cheating. The British riders you question were no riding when the sport was deep in the mire of overt doping. Horner meanwhile was winning during the doping era and comes from a country with a shameful history of organised doping in pretty much all professional sport. The distinctions between the two are quite clear to me and to many I speak to. I guess your bias does not allow an objective view to form a reasoned opinion. But please do consider the differences in historical circumstances .

[jooo]

Horner mysteriously disappeared for six months prior to re emerging as a world beater.

Have you seen his Palmarès? Many years of solid results with lean periods that happen to coincide with, wait for it, crashes, injuries and surgery. Heaps mysterious...

edit: for the record my post has nothing to do with my stance on doping, simply to point out that looking at someone's wiki is really really hard so you may as well just make things up

[maquisard]

Was just reviewing Horner's Palmares

- He is hardly emerged as a world beater, but rather he has always performed consistently well but the top results have only come since the sport ( apparently ) cleaned up. In the early 2000's he was winning... but on the US Pro scene.

- He was not named specifically as a doping athlete on the USADA report. Even if his identity was concealed in the report would Tygart and USADA have let him ride on the USA Olympic team considered how other riders were dropped?

- He is without contract for next year, as was Froome in 2010 before he became the best climber in the world overnight.

- He was tested out of competition as much as the Sky Athletes who train in Tenerife, or Astana in St Moritiz.

- However he is an older athlete putting in decent performances so performances are quite spectacular, but no more than Froome or Wiggins. All deserve suspicion.

[lippythelion]

After watching yesterdays Angliru stage I predict that Flecha will ride for Astana in 2014. And possibly Nocentini too, although that might've been World Championship loyalties

[prendrefeu]

Sorry but I think you will find the UK athletes have faced numerous in competition tests whereas Horner mysteriously disappeared for six months prior to re emerging as a world beater.

If you go back, the question was specifically about "out of competition" tests, which you asked about for Horner and I reversed to ask the same.

Now Froome did the same in 2011 so question arks could be aimed fairly at him. But he maintained his form for the next two years. It will be interesting to see if Horner clan do the same.

If he gets a contract to continue. He is older, after all. On the plus side he's extremely low maintenance. Besides, Horner didn't disappear - he's been riding all year long. It's not hard to look up his race results from 2013. By your logic, Cancellara "disappeared" for months since he ripped through the Spring Classics, then re-emerges to beat Martin in a TT. That must be suspicious. </sarcasm>

As for logic, it is illogical to suggest that there is a history of British athletes en mass being guilty of cheating. The British riders you question were no riding when the sport was deep in the mire of overt doping. Horner meanwhile was winning during the doping era and comes from a country with a shameful history of organised doping in pretty much all professional sport. The distinctions between the two are quite clear to me and to many I speak to. I guess your bias does not allow an objective view to form a reasoned opinion. But please do consider the differences in historical circumstances .

As for logic, it is illogical to assume that because certain athletes were born at certain period of time that suddenly there is no possibility of them doping. Read your statements before you post them. It is illogical to assume national lines, which you do in the very statement above. So Turkey has no history of organized doping, yet they've produced two cases recently. Germany has a history of doping, yet they've been mostly clean recently. France had a history of doping, and again, recently they've come out mostly clean. Do you see the lack of correlation here?

So while you're point at me being biased, you are ignoring what I'm actually doing: I am pointing at YOUR bias while I am approaching it with the thinking that everyone, regardless of country, is capable of doping and is subject to warranted criticism. If you go back and read nowhere did I ever state that Horner is clean, nor did I state that a person should not be open to criticism. I did state that there should be some skepticism towards Horner, did you not read that?

[MattSoutherden]

Farrar 2nd!

[tinchy]

^
Makes a change!

[stella-azzurra]

I think Farrar doesn't win many sprints mainly due to his less aggressive nature in positioning himself at the sprint.

[djconnel]

Horner's win is just the most recent, most obvious example of why I feel this is so timely:

WADA to Introduce Steroid Passport by Year’s End

I think the older athletes are topping off the reserves to bring themselves up to the level of tests designed with limits which are appropriate for 19-21 year olds at the peak of their metabolic activity.

[ryker]

Farrar 2nd!

Will it be enough for a Worldtour contract next year?

[airwise]

Pren we'll have to disagree. I've enough experience of the internet to know it's not worth bashing your head against a wall trying to make a blinkered man see light - as I'm sure have you.

You'll have to excuse my scepticism. I cite Armstrong, Hamilton, Landis, Danielsson, Hincapie as examples of American professional cyclists who have competed with and against Horner during his career. I asked how many out of competition tests a 42 year old out of contract cyclist had been subjected to over the past six months. I still would love an answer. Even Kelly called the performance "unbelievable".

This result and the Cobo one of 2011 really stick in my throat as being of the "unbelieveable" ilk.

[prendrefeu]

Kelly also called Froome's performance unbelievable. Actually, he uses that word a lot.

You're still not reading. Your skepticism is fine, that's not what I'm pointing at. What we are pointing at is YOUR complete lack of balance. You want to question Horner? That's fine, and as far as I have read no one - NO ONE - has been vehemently defending Horner and there has been a healthy, balanced, analysis of what may or may not be. Some questions, some support, but nothing outlandish. Even when there is "data" comparisons there still are more questions about Froome than with Horner - based purely on presentation of data. Again, we've gone over this already, just read the thread in the last few pages. What is interesting is how vehemently you attacked others when they brought up skepticism against Froome, Sky, or any other British rider. So we're not allowed to question Froome et al lest we we subject to your angry attacks about our assumed nationalities, yet we're also not allowed to have a balanced discussion, with evidence, about Horner? We're just pointing this out to you about you. Your attack was so vehement you made accusations about others based off of where they live, associating people on stereotypes of nationality. Why are you so quick to draw nationalist lines? We're all human, we're each fallible, and cycling has very little to do with one's nationality.

Go back a bit and read clearly, I'm not the only one trying to point this out to you.
HT2 is still waiting for a reply from you over here...
Others have brought up your biased approach to you long before I even posted anything about this... it's not that hard to see this: they are scattered over the past few pages of this very thread. Do you not see what many are pointing at?

[Kjetil]

After watching yesterdays Angliru stage I predict that Flecha will ride for Astana in 2014. And possibly Nocentini too, although that might've been World Championship loyalties

Thanks for writing that. Struck my mind when I saw Flecha's pull for Nibali.