The XC MTB specific training thread

[AlexJ]

Ok thanks, with a FTP of 315 what would you say unders and over should be at ?

yea the race files showed a lower NP than i would have thought some have been high some have been low.

eg http://tpks.ws/SkVw

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/NK5CB7Q ... MMNWVUXCJU

i just would like 20-40 watts added on to the FTP

[devinci]

the over/under can be done a multiple ways. 2 x 20 with 30sec at 80% and 30sec at 110-120%. 4 x 5 with 20sec at 130% and 20sec at 90%.

So play with the % to get a realistic average power in the end. FOr exemple, for a 20min block of over/under, your average power could fall between 90 and 100% of FTP. For a 5min block, 105-115% of FTP.

These are very general guidelines, your issue is much more complex and requires a medium/long term approach with a variety of training intensity, duration and frequency.

[justaute]

This thread is quite educational. Thanks. Definitely a lot for me to learn.

[AlexJ]

OK thanks, my winter aim will be to get my FTP to around 5.6-7 watts/kg (335-345) which should be doable with the right approach just be a long term approach of 5-6 months with a full program! and i'll probably do some Strength and condition work to improve the MTB side of racing.

Anything else you suggest/recommend?

[Tapeworm]

^ Get a coach!

Balancing, monitoring and adapting training which then include a S&C aspect can be tricky. At the very least have someone you can bounce ideas/plans/strategies off on a regular basis, will make all the difference.

I am sure there are people here that can make some good recommendations.

[DanW]

Very informative thread, some good reads in there

I have a practical question which will probably make the physiologists/ coaches/ hardcore racers cringe with frustration...

Background is an enthusiatic amateur and the honest answer is that consistency of training quality/ volume will always be my downfall due to work/ family/ usual excuses, hence why my goals are exploring on the bike/ longer races and events for the satisfaction of completion rather than position.

Most of my local rides have lots of short sharp climbs and in races/ marathon events it is the short sharp climbs I particularly struggle with. As an example of what I mean by "short and sharp," I am talking about 15-20% average grade for 3-4 minutes. The surfaces of these climbs are rocky and rooty so the majority of time I need to pedal seated to maintain traction. On the particularly technical climbs I am having to admit defeat as I am right on the limits of my capabilities fitness wise and loosing momentum over the rocks/ roots.

I guess the question is how to improve seated 4 minute power? I also feel I lack the underlying strength to keep a reasonable cadence on these climbs. I realise these types of climbs will always be tough but how do you go about improving riding such steep climbs? What are the components of success in these situations? I feel my technical skills are ok but perhaps even this is a component to look at in some way? Is it simply a case of doing it more and more and it gradually getting easier (doesn't seem to be working so far!), hill repeats on these gradients, maybe even gradually higher gearing on lesser gradients to build up to the strength required on these really steep off-road climbs? The last option makes the most sense to me but I would be very grateful for any advice the far more knowledgeable on here may be able to offer.

[Tapeworm]

4min power is pretty much all aerobic, so if you are struggling with (during a ride for example) this is simply means your overall power is just low. Have a good read again through this thread and others on forum for information and tips on how to train this. I know I struggle with consistency with training but it is key to improving.

There certainly is technique for applying power in mtb, especially on loose terrain. Personally, for short punchy climbs, I like to be out of the saddle and practically touching my chest to the stem. In matter like this practice on the terrain will also help.

[AlexJ]

Don't normally post numbers but i posted i had been struggling with short efforts (5min)

had previously been training for improving this and just hit a brand new PB of 405 watts @ 58.5 kg for a 5min which hasn't really moved much over the last 1-2 years!

I just now need to replicate this in the races now! only 1-2 let! as no worlds.

[devinci]

DanW

we definitly dont have the same definition of short sharp climbs!!

For your 4min power, work anything around 4min, e-g. 2 to 5 minutes hill repeats at high power, anything between 110 and 130% of FTP. You also need to work your FTP with maybe longer steady efforts, long rides at endurance pace and/or micro intervals blocks. Basically lots of way to do that.

Of course it needs to fit the overall training plan

[DanW]

3-4 minutes up a 20% average gradient is definitely "short and sharp" compared to some of the 8-10% average gradient climbs we have that are exclusively singletrack and can take 20-40 minutes to climb

Of course these long climbs don't fit with XC racing but I prefer the the longer events and marathons and these local events include both types of climb so I can't exclude either. Plus both are fun in their own way

So for the short, sharp climbs there is nothing that can be done in the short to mid term besides increasing aerobic capacity in the more long term with the long steady rides? Despite the time duration (3-4 minutes) of what I am calling "short and sharp", because the climbs are so steep my HR shoots up to 170-180bpm very quickly so surely this must be an anaerobic effort? I guess that means the only way to makes these climbs more feasible is to increase the limit at which I can work aerobically as you suggest. Without that anything more specific is going to be hard to see any benefits? Is that the correct lay persons interpretation? Basically it is a general MTB fitness deficiency rather than a specific one...

[devinci]

it is certainly not an anaerobic effort. The reason you feel maxed out is likely caused by the hill gradient. The 20% gradient is so steep it forces you to produce some high wattage to get over the top while on the lower gradient, your wattage drops much more easily even though your HR stays high.

I would suggest working some hill repeats of 3 to 5 minutes for a total work time of about 12 to 20min. Then come the offseason you can focus on building on top of that fitness you already got.

[stephenjames]

I'm a great advocate of 30/30's as they give a nice balance of effort. I prefer sets of 10 all out and vary the position and cadence between those sets. For instance first set seated, second set lower cadence, 3rd set out of saddle etc. i find them quite specific for XC

[DanW]

I have been trying to get my head around the physiology side of things and as a lay person often find it hard to relate to a lot of the information on a practical level. I came across this article which I found useful as a very rough introduction http://www.wentwood50.co.uk/downloads/t ... urance.pdf

I would imagine not everything is quite as definite a fact as it would make out and some things may be a little outdated but nevertheless it seems a good overview and more importantly relates the different components of physiology to their practical application and how to practically improve each aspect.

On a separate note, how do people who have switched to 1x10 on their XC bikes get on with turbo training? Now I am on 32-11 it is nowhere near hard enough for some of the harder intervals and sessions. I have an old Minoura Hypermag Alu and can not make the resistance hard enough on 1x10 gearing. Are there other turbo trainers out there where the resistance can be made very, very hard and still feel smooth or will 1x10 never work well for hard turbo sessions?

Thanks again!

[devinci]

i used a tacx with 10 levels of resistance and its plenty

[DanW]

Even with a 32T front ring? My hardest gear is 32-11

Would you have a link to the rough model devinci?

Thanks!