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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:46 pm 
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Hi Guys,

Earlier in the season I was a bit lost on how to train with power, and was doing a fair bit wrong, many people helped me put together a good plan for the season. Here are the results so far:

Ftp Start 290w
Ftp last month 332w (possibly a bit more now need to test)

Peak sprint up 200w to 1200w (more technique than anything)

Up a cat to cat 3.

Won a hilly 25 mile tt on my S1 with clip ons and training wheels!

Finished several 70 mile rr but struggled with positioning in the sprint.

Top 10% of people up most climbs I have tried in Spain and Italy (on strava).

I have 2 races left this year then I am planning to do a bit of cross for training and then a winter crit series.

I would like to ultimately aim for 5 w/kg. I am currently carrying a bit of excess and could loose 10 kg but that would still mean upping my ftp to 380w. Do you think I could manage this in say 7 months?


I am no using Training peaks and have a good grasp of TSS CTL and 4 week training blocks.

The question is do I just carry on with what I am doing aiming at a average of 100-130 tss/day average or do I adapt my training in some significant manner?



Thanks so much for the help.

James


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:48 am 
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That's some terrific improvements, congrats!

Interesting you say

" do I just carry on with what I am doing aiming at a average of 100-130 tss/day average"

as I cannot recall people on here commonly giving advice along this line of thinking.

To answer 'can I drop 10kg and add 50W to my FTP in 7 months' - I'm going to say it's highly unlikely. What does the current training plan look like? How much of a race calendar do you have remaining? And where do you live? (read: will snow in the coming months be an issue). As getting FTP up with some mild weight loss is certainly attainable. We just need some more info :)

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Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:48 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:26 am 
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Thanks.

I live in the UK lowlands so ride all year round. I have two races left, one next week and one the week after but I have not been targeting any A or B races as there are races almost twice a week here during the season.

I have not been allowing a week off this year and have only just discovered the four week block idea:

Typical week:

Sunday 70 mile RR or 90 mile Training ride high tss (maybe near 300)

Monday : rest with a 150-200w recovery commute (1 hr)
Tuesday : Race winning interval type work out
Weds: FTP ride 2x20 or similar
Thursday: Anerobic/VO2 max ride following a workout from chris hoy
Friday : longer 40 mile ride with some strong efforts
Sat: 1hr race tune up

This is what I have been doing but I feel ready to ramp up my efforts a bit to increase TSS to the aforementioned 100 region. I would say we are at 80 ish currently.

Sometimes I have been having 2 days off after a particularly hard day.

Goal for next season is Cat 2 and hopefully a decent placing in the club TT champs.


Regards,

James


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:34 am 
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Location: Geeeelong!
welkman wrote:
I have not been allowing a week off this year and have only just discovered the four week block idea:

You posting on the correct forum? There's barely any people here still pushing this. In fact, you would do well to find anyone on here over the past few years to have any evidence that this approach is beneficial.

Same goes for the rest of your work out.


Your height and current weight would also help in assisting your future training plan (and how realistic your aims might be), but I'd say a re-vamp of your current program would certainly help.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:50 am 
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I am now 85kg and 6ft 3in. Not naturally skinny but I think 75kg is possible.

As I say I have only just discovered the concept of 4 week training blocks via the powermeter handbook.

Cheers


James


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Location: Canada
Uppon first view your weekly load just sounds too much, too little recovery. It may be bareable for a while but you'll eventually burn out or hit a plateau with this sort of schedule.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:32 pm 
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I am not sure really, it is manageable and I need the calories burnt to drop weight. I suppose it could be too intense and I could up the endurance/tempo time. I aim for about 200-250 miles in a week. There seems to be such a large amount of different advice online and in books, I am a bit lost. Do I use the Training peaks tools? Their literature says an average of 100TSS a day seems to produce optimal results. I am not sure how to plan the coming 7 months before the race season returns :)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:44 pm 
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Go get tested and talk with Peter, he's in London.
http://www.metabolicsolutions.co.uk/


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Sounds like you need to work on eating/fueling.
You say that you need to burn calories to drop weight.
Race weight is truly made in the kitchen- not on the bike.
You need to figure out a food mix/quantity that allows for full performance, full recovery and target weight.
If you are always relying on big training to get you there, weight will come back as soon as training lightens up.

welkman wrote:
I am not sure really, it is manageable and I need the calories burnt to drop weight. I suppose it could be too intense and I could up the endurance/tempo time. I aim for about 200-250 miles in a week. There seems to be such a large amount of different advice online and in books, I am a bit lost. Do I use the Training peaks tools? Their literature says an average of 100TSS a day seems to produce optimal results. I am not sure how to plan the coming 7 months before the race season returns :)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:27 pm 
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I understand the calorie issue but a bit of background may help: 3 years ago I was 18+ stone and then started commuting 20 miles by bike. Obviously I started eating well, using livestrong to manage weight loss. I am now looking at a target calorie amount of 1700 ish in order to drop a kilo a week. I need to increase the amount of caloies to allow training but this is all tracked via livestrong or Training peaks. One option would be to target a half kilo loss/week. I think I dropped the weight via exercise but I also massively changed my diet.

Idea of a weekday:

Breakfast:

0700

Yummy home roasted beans and a latte from my Rancillio coffee machine :)
Porridge - 80g with skimmed milk and sugar (2tsp)

Break 1100:

Couple of apples (these often get eaten by 0930)

Lunch: 1215

200 kcal worth of whey protein (with 400kcal of oat powder on hard days)

Home between 1600 and 1800:

Normally hungry by now so eat 4-6 slices of toast (I know I know but I am addicted to bread)

Main meal: 0800

Rice 75g
Chicken breast x1
Tomatoes
Curry Spices

Maybe a snack in the evening if I have saved calories.


Sometimes a glass of red. Sometimes a bottle of red (weekends)

Bed 10-1100

My training seems in line with most of the riders around here time and mileage wise (looking at strava).

Most of the riders around here in the road races seem to be seriously quick, especially in crits with E123 groupings. I get dropped on repeated climbs (when there is one steep climb on a circuit repeated say 10 times).

Hope this helps A bit, booked a full lab test through the local university in October (skin fold, VO2 max, lactate levels etc.) Have also booked a nutritional evaluation . I am only doing this as I teach a bit of sports physiology and need to research the tests for my students.

:)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Forgot to add that I use home made gel to fuel workouts at 300 kcal/hour of intense exercise and drink a lot of water through the day.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:45 pm 
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I can't help you with the training peaks metric, as I dont use their PMC and system myself, and dont want to start a rant on it.

It depends on your goal. It's hard to focus on droping weight and getting good power and race results. I'd just focus on building power as much as I could and the weight issue should get solve by itself if you train adequately and eat good food.

I would not add much tempo or endurance. It is shown high intensity will be as good if not better then large volume of training to shed a few kg's of body weight.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:15 am 
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Trying to lose a 1kg a week while training sounds insane. If you are trying to get fitter and faster that should be your sole goal and you should feed your body for that. Given the snacking it sounds like you aren't eating enough through the day.

200kcal of whey protein only between your early morning snack and late afternoon snack sounds like a recipe for fatigue to me.

With regards to your training, not enough rest in there. Personally I would have Thursday or Friday as a rest day.

Drop the wine too. No alcohol you sleep better, therefore you recover better.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Saved calories? You seem to be under-eating by a lot.
Even if you were only eating for 75 kg, you would need way more than 1700 calories. And that would be for a rest day.
You should look up Mifflin equation- figure out what your base needs are for a single day.
Add in the kj expenditure from training.
If you are going to create deficit, it should only be about 300 per day.
Also, your diet needs work.
Add some fresh vegetables.
Eat more at breakfast.
Get rid of the wine.
What do you eat on the bike and for recovery as soon as training is finished? This matters too, need to make good choices and have a strategy in place.
My guess is that your base calorie needs are at least 2500 per day- maybe more than that. So even a deficit day with zero training would need to be at least 2200.


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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:06 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:00 pm 
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Location: Bay Area
When I started cycling I was around 230 lbs. I did my first power test when I weighed around 190 and got an FTP of 260w.

Fast forward 3.5 years from that test and I sit around 160lbs and my best threshold figure is 345w. Its so hard to give a detailed answer given how much can go into your goals as well as your background and what you're doing now, but I highly doubt that you will be able to add that much power and lose that much weight in a short amount of time. For me it took a lot of dieting, experimentation, and a lot of trial/error to figure out how to keep progressing at both an absolute power and w/kg target. I've also learned that for most racing that doesn't involve summit finishes w/kg isn't the be all and end all and have found training other areas of my power profile to be more beneficial.

I'd separate your racing goals, training goals, weight loss goals, and current power profile strength and weaknesses into many different areas. I've found that during general prep and the off-season I do best trying to slowly lose weight. Weight also comes off during the build and racing phase, but I'm much less able to be meticulous and much more focused on recovery, proper fueling, and my results than on calorie or weight metrics. Sure, I've lost weight while doing all types of training, but there are often big cost/benefit implications of what it takes to do so. I will never try to lose weight while I am trying to boost my L5/L6 power ever again or while in a big block of racing/training at a very high CTL.

Looking at your plan you are doing far more intensity than I'd personally recommend for a rider of your level and experience. Moreover it would be impossible to be in a big enough caloric deficit to consistently lose weight and recover from such an effort.

That's all I can say without knowing your broader history and much, much more about your habits and training. Good luck and don't rush the process.

Your diet is really lacking. You eat quite a bit of sugar/processed foods and I don't see how you can fuel your workouts given your bodyweight and training schedule.

Strava is the worst reference point for planning and evaluating what you vs. what others do.

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