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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:54 am 
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+1 - perfect summary.

At the end of the day, as you said, carbon sells. And the tubular market is almost a niche within a niche - just look at the rush carbon rim makers have made to get clincher versions of their carbon wheels out to the masses.

Sad to say, but I honestly think the tubular alloy rims' days are numbered.

Louis - would you be happy with a Zipp 101 tub if it existed? I would at the very least be intrigued...maybe build up with some real hubs.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:16 pm 
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I agree, Calnago, you summed it up pretty well.

In the "race what you can replace" category, carbon took it's place in the peloton. I remember a few years ago, a lot of Continental U23 Teams were running Ksyrium Elite wheels, even Equipe on most of their bikes (from what I noticed at Coupe des Nations), now almost all of them have full carbon wheels.

I for shure wouldn't want to see a Zipp 101 tubular wheel. It would be wayy overpriced, even pricier than most of carbon tubular wheels. They would throw a bunch of marketing brag about some tests, numbers, and blah, blah to promote their superior thing, etc...

No. I don't buy that.

And most big names rims are priced very high. A Mavic Open Pro single rim is priced at $140. here in Canada :shock: !!! HED and Ambrosio rims are very nicely made, but pricey.

But if Kinlin would reshape their TB25 with a rounder profile, and shape the channel to "welcome" the tubular tire with better all around aerodynamics and stay under 420 g for the rim (good enough for under 1350g wheelset), at $40. per rim, I'd say even if clincher is king in the alloy rim business, they would still sell a ton of tubular rims, to junior athletes and road racing teams, for training and everyday use purposes, etc.

I know I'd buy a few sets....

Louis :)


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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:16 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Hmmm... $40 tubular rims. Well wouldn't that be nice. So basically you want a really affordable nice tubular alloy rim that's as light and aero as a modern carbon offering. Louis, I applaud your dreams, but I think the other half of the wheel equation is being somewhat ignored in your analysis. You seem to think there's a market in the junior racing category and that this market is very price sensitive (which is undoubtedly true), hence your wish for an affordable alloy tubular brought up to today's standards of aero and lightness and what have you. Ok... let's assume for a brief moment that some manufacturer decides to fulfill your wish. You now have your $40 rims. Awwwwessome, I hear you say. But wait... now what do you adorn these wonderful cheap tubular rims that you have in your fine hands with. Damnit... those tubular tires sure are expensive. And the cost of replacing them due to a flat when they're not even close to worn out ain't no picnic either. Not to mention the labor involved. So you see... now that you've thrown overall cost effectiveness as being high on your wish list... even if you were able to procure such rims, the cost of tires and their associated labor and replacement will still make clinchers the preferred solution in that market of junior price conscious racers.

Basically Louis, if you want to ride tubulars for the same cost as clinchers, you're screwed. They are wonderful to ride, but you pay to play and it doesn't seem like there's any way around that. :beerchug:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:22 pm 
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With three kids (including myself) bike racing, believe me, for an OCD person (lol) it's a full time task to pick the best performance tools at an affordable price .... :lol:
My limited budget is forcing me to choose alternate options.
I still succeeded in building some decent road bikes under 17 lbs for the girls at under $900.

For tubulars, it's a personnal prefference. At 80-85 lbs, I'm shure the girls won't flat very often on them. Last summer, I had to change tubes 4 times on their clinchers, and mostly due to defects.
I use tubs 95% of the time. This summer I used mt TB25 wheels all summer and couldn't be happier. They still don't roll as fast as my FFWD F6R, but as a do-it-all, they're perfect.
I didn't have to buy tubulars this year, on the other hand it cost me $300. in tires and tubes for the 2 "road kids". So in the end, tubulars are costly, but hey, all good material is costly.

But I maintain my point. I'm shure it's not that hard and costly to change the pattern of a tool that's machining aluminium rods. The rest of the manufacturing process is the same. Kinlin rims are already cheap at around $40. a piece. I know they're not the nicest in terms of finish (hence keeping the manufacturing cost low), but the deeper ones are tough, I have some XR270 that have 30 000 "bad weather" KM's on them and still straight as an arrow, and round.

It's all a matter of will.
Carbon is taking over the bike frame industry. Probably costs a lot less to produce than aluminium.
Even our famous local frame builder Marinoni is giving up aluminium in 2013, because of the process involved. They are focusing on building steel and Ti, and branding carbon...:(

It certainly takes a big manufacture to accomplish this. Cannondale is, for shure NOT, still producing the CAAD's because it's such a great material and great product. They're doing it because they lowered the manufacturing cost, and they're still making a decent mark up ;) (IMHO)...

I'll keep on dreaming...(that and cheap OEM 35mm deep carbon tubular rims :lol:

Louis :)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:39 pm 
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What happened to the Velocity Pro Elite? It was the tubular version of the DeepV. It seems to fit your bill, although a bit heavy, but a recent search shows nothing. Perhaps it has been discontinued.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Calnago wrote:
I wouldn't want to see wider rims for tubulars that allow them to "sit deeper". That would detract from the qualities that make tubulars so nice to ride.


I have ridden Enve Smart tubulars and don't agree. Those tires sit deep in the rim and I had no problem with handling and ride quality. I never put bigger than a 23mm tire on them. In fact quite the opposite, I loved the ride quality and had no problem doing 100+ mile rides on them.

I think there is definitely a market for a Pacenti SL23 tubular version designed with 23mm tires in mind. The wider rim has a few benefits. It will match the brake tracks of a clincher set for people that swap between the two. It will have better aero properties. Also, the wider rims can be made stiffer for lower counts. One of the best things I like about the SL23 is it is a very stiff rim without additional weight compared to your average clincher rim. I would bet a tubular version could be made as stiff and still com in closer to 400-420g.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:54 pm 
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ergott wrote:
One of the best things I like about the SL23 is it is a very stiff rim without additional weight compared to your average clincher rim. I would bet a tubular version could be made as stiff and still com in closer to 400-420g.


is that in the works ?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:33 pm 
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ergott wrote:
I have ridden Enve Smart tubulars and don't agree. Those tires sit deep in the rim and I had no problem with handling and ride quality. I never put bigger than a 23mm tire on them. In fact quite the opposite, I loved the ride quality and had no problem doing 100+ mile rides on them.
I think there is definitely a market for a Pacenti SL23 tubular version designed with 23mm tires in mind. The wider rim has a few benefits. It will match the brake tracks of a clincher set for people that swap between the two. It will have better aero properties. Also, the wider rims can be made stiffer for lower counts. One of the best things I like about the SL23 is it is a very stiff rim without additional weight compared to your average clincher rim. I would bet a tubular version could be made as stiff and still com in closer to 400-420g.


:up:

That's exactly what I'd like to see. With some little changes in the shape design (a little narrower than 24mm to accomodate 22-23mm road tubulars, deeper channel, work out wall thicknesses, etc...) , I think we'd have a winner with the Pacenti.

I wonder how many signatures or FB "likes" it would take for Pacenti to start an SL23 tubular version.... :thumbup:

Louis :)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:22 pm 
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It's a thought being considered, but like everything the demand has to be high enough for a significant run.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:25 pm 
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I'd buy a pair. How's that for demand ;-)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Me too!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Me too!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:58 am 
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A Stans ZTR 340 in tubular? Or a reflex with Exalith? Though odds of a Pacenti are slightly higher.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:54 pm 
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Promising news from the Pacenti group:

I sent this message a few days ago:

HI Kirk (Pacenti),
I'M one of the many road cyclists that are looking for a "modern" shaped
alloy tubular rim that would provide light weight (around 400-420g) and
better aero properties than the "traditionnal" rims.
The wider rim trend is OK with clinchers, but for tubulars, all we see is
wider rims for cyclocross use and it's not ideal for road tubulars
(22-23mm). The road tubular rims should have deeper channels to have a
better bond and accomplish better aerodynamics between tubular-rim "combo".
I wonder if it would mean a ton of money in investments for the new design
of aluminium "rods" shapes, or other things...(?!) Tell me if you need a
bunch of cycling enthusiasts, or maybe start a Facebook Pacenti SL23tubular
page where we could all sign up and "like", so you know you'll have enough
"Love" and buyers for this rim.
Thanks for reading me,
Louis Normand, Canada


I got this answer yesterday:

Louis,

Thanks for the note. We are giving serious consideration to a SL23 Road
Tubular rim. It would not happen until next year, but we are thinking about
it.

Thanks again,


David Cash
Pacenti Cycle Design


Louis :)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:12 pm 
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@Louis ... what about this?

http://www.neuvationcycling.com/product ... r-1686.htm


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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:12 pm 


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