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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:03 am
Posts: 165
This is how companies should market their bikes....actually speaking with customers. Now if only my LBS had a catalog of the new Felts.....


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:22 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:28 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 389
Location: Irvine, CA
pyrahna wrote:
Did you just say you have seen a 200 gram drag difference make a 7mph speed difference? Or are you talking about a 200g frame difference and having the rider going from sitting straight up to down in the drops?
SuperDave wrote:
To circle back on your previous comment, I've seen first hand bike + rider aerodynamics take a given constant power output and give it's pilot 7mph.
-SD


For a bicycle? No, I didn't intend to say or suggest that 200g of drag = 7mph.

Clean sheet of paper, new topic, no aerodynamic data offered; I suggested that with a constant power output in one position on one bike it is possible to see a ~7mph gain with a new position.

For example:
"Rider A" at 400w goes ~40kph.
"Rider A" changes bike and posture/position.
"Rider A" produces 400w on new bike in new position and goes ~50kph.

-SD

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:30 am 
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Posts: 389
Location: Irvine, CA
wolfesquire wrote:
if only my LBS had a catalog of the new Felts.....


Where are you located?

-SD

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:36 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:03 am
Posts: 165
Richmond/Hampton Roads, Virginia. Their is a felt dealership nearby, but I didn't see a catalog anywhere in the shop. Definitely getting a Felt AR for next year! Now where did I put that wallet........


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:55 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 389
Location: Irvine, CA
wolfesquire wrote:
Richmond/Hampton Roads, Virginia. Their is a felt dealership nearby, but I didn't see a catalog anywhere in the shop. Definitely getting a Felt AR for next year! Now where did I put that wallet........


Small world.
Our company president is from Richmond.
One of our product managers is from Blacksburg.

Catalogs have begun shipping to dealers this week. I suspect your dealer will have them by the weekend.

-SD

_________________
www.feltracing.com


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:55 am
Posts: 444
Location: Vladivostok
Just got a price from an Australian store on the AR FRD - $4499 ETA January 2014.

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:20 am 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 3:03 am
Posts: 215
Location: Maryland
SuperDave wrote:
JN2Wheels wrote:
Thanks for details, SuperD! My question may have come off a bit abrasive. I was just floored to see an Ultegra DI2 build at such a price point, and $2700 dollars more than the mechanical equivalent. I mainly wanted to clarify it wasn't a typo! I'm sure you have the numbers. And thanks for sharing the spec bump specifics.
Knowing that the layup is different for both frame and seatpost does explain a little. It's just that for most people, UDi2 is the way in to electronic at a budget-friendly price point. For me, at least, I feel you guys may have missed the point by upspeccing that model so much. Let 9070 stand as the premium shimano electric, and use Udi2 to entice new electronic customers who are price sensitive.
Anyway, the frame looks awesome and will no doubt do very well. Congrats, and I can't wait to read first rides!


Help me with your expectations please.

Start with the Felt AR1 frame (or any companies carbon aero road frame)
Add an Ultegra Di2 11 speed group
Add 3T carbon cockpit and 3T carbon wheels
Add any premium ti-rail saddle
Add any premium clincher tire

What do you expect to pay for the bike describe above? Just like grade school, show your math work.

It is also worth noting that Ultegra Di2 won't show up in any significant quantity before Jan 1st cutting potential sales volume (for us) in half.

-SD


I think you are missing my point. I'm not trying to say that you have priced the Udi2 AR higher than its spec is worth. I'm sure your team can add :) . But rather you are specing it too high for a 2nd tier electronic build. At least for 2013, at retail prices, electronic added $1040 to the straight Ultegra mechanical group.

For example, with some quick googling...

2013 Bikes with Udi2 (aero where available, 2nd level frame where a distinction is made)

-Specialized Venge Expert $5500 msrp -
-Cannondale SuperSix EVO $5200 msrp -
-Fuji SST 1.3 $4200 msrp $3400 online -
-Cervelo S5 $5500 msrp $4500 online -
-Ridley Noah $5700 msrp $3400 online -
-Neil Prude Alize $4800 msrp $3500 online -
-Trek Madone 5.9 $5040 msrp (couldn't find 6 series) -
-Merida Scultura Comp 905 $4373 msrp -
-Etc.

So, my only point is that your build is overshooting what the market has settled into for second tier electronic. I totally get that you are positioning the AR as inherently above all others thanks to the years of research. No doubt it will be awesome. I would just love to see your Ultegra build + $1000 for electronic (surely your price differences are much less than the retail differences) + $$? for the improved layup. Not the $2700 difference it is now. Or run it on sale, I guess.

Anyway. I don't want to harp on this anymore. Its an awesome product, with substantial buzz, and an engaged marketing team. Go get 'Em!

*Edit* And after reviewing previous posts a bit more, it seems that the Athena EPS version at 5150 may be just what the doctor ordered. Especially if it comes with the new internal battery enhancements Campy has announced.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:45 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 389
Location: Irvine, CA
JN2Wheels wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
JN2Wheels wrote:
Thanks for details, SuperD! My question may have come off a bit abrasive. I was just floored to see an Ultegra DI2 build at such a price point, and $2700 dollars more than the mechanical equivalent. I mainly wanted to clarify it wasn't a typo! I'm sure you have the numbers. And thanks for sharing the spec bump specifics.
Knowing that the layup is different for both frame and seatpost does explain a little. It's just that for most people, UDi2 is the way in to electronic at a budget-friendly price point. For me, at least, I feel you guys may have missed the point by upspeccing that model so much. Let 9070 stand as the premium shimano electric, and use Udi2 to entice new electronic customers who are price sensitive.
Anyway, the frame looks awesome and will no doubt do very well. Congrats, and I can't wait to read first rides!


Help me with your expectations please.

Start with the Felt AR1 frame (or any companies carbon aero road frame)
Add an Ultegra Di2 11 speed group
Add 3T carbon cockpit and 3T carbon wheels
Add any premium ti-rail saddle
Add any premium clincher tire

What do you expect to pay for the bike describe above? Just like grade school, show your math work.

It is also worth noting that Ultegra Di2 won't show up in any significant quantity before Jan 1st cutting potential sales volume (for us) in half.

-SD


I think you are missing my point. I'm not trying to say that you have priced the Udi2 AR higher than its spec is worth. I'm sure your team can add :) . But rather you are specing it too high for a 2nd tier electronic build. At least for 2013, at retail prices, electronic added $1040 to the straight Ultegra mechanical group.

For example, with some quick googling...

2013 Bikes with Udi2 (aero where available, 2nd level frame where a distinction is made)

-Specialized Venge Expert $5500 msrp -
-Cannondale SuperSix EVO $5200 msrp -
-Fuji SST 1.3 $4200 msrp $3400 online -
-Cervelo S5 $5500 msrp $4500 online -
-Ridley Noah $5700 msrp $3400 online -
-Neil Prude Alize $4800 msrp $3500 online -
-Trek Madone 5.9 $5040 msrp (couldn't find 6 series) -
-Merida Scultura Comp 905 $4373 msrp -
-Etc.

So, my only point is that your build is overshooting what the market has settled into for second tier electronic. I totally get that you are positioning the AR as inherently above all others thanks to the years of research. No doubt it will be awesome. I would just love to see your Ultegra build + $1000 for electronic (surely your price differences are much less than the retail differences) + $$? for the improved layup. Not the $2700 difference it is now. Or run it on sale, I guess.

Anyway. I don't want to harp on this anymore. Its an awesome product, with substantial buzz, and an engaged marketing team. Go get 'Em!

*Edit* And after reviewing previous posts a bit more, it seems that the Athena EPS version at 5150 may be just what the doctor ordered. Especially if it comes with the new internal battery enhancements Campy has announced.


Those are all 10 speed Ultegra Di2 bikes, right? I see Felts advertised at $3999 for 2013 bikes with Di2.
I am sure you can find a dealer who will swap out the cockpit and wheels on the AR2 to something that suits your price point.
Just changing the 3T carbon wheels to something like a MAVIC Cosmic or a house brand like Roval, Bontrager, our TTR wheels could save $1000 on the retail price.
Yes, Athena is $5150 to compete with budget e-shift builds and 2nd teir low tech brands' Di2 bikes.
We also have a couple Ultegra Di2 bikes UNDER $5000 in the 2014 product line, just not on an AR1 frameset.

-SD

_________________
www.feltracing.com


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:06 pm
Posts: 82
Location: SF Bay Area
SuperDave wrote:
There are two frame molds:

The AR FRD, AR2 and AR3 EPS all use electronic shifting with the cable routing entering behind the stem.
The AR1, AR3 Red, AR4 and AR5 all use cable stops which allow mechanical cable housing to run inside the downtube through the frame.

The cable routing was revised to optimize the balance of performance, user service-friendly, and upgrade-able. Behind the stem cabling remains the most aerodynamic location to route the cables but is less desirable for future 11 speed groups' function.

Thanks for all the info Dave. A few questions/clarifications if you don't mind?

1) Is the AR1 frame kit "mechanical only" or just "mechanical friendly" but still able to work with electronic if one is willing to use the DT cable ports?
2) Any plans for a 0mm seatpost option? -25mm to +25mm leaves a large amount of room in between, particularly for those that like a 0mm post.
3) I didn't see the FA framekit in your big MSRP list. Is this an oversight or has one of the best budget race frame around been eliminated from the lineup? If it is gone, I'll start treating mine a bit more gently. :)

Again, thanks for the info.


Last edited by aerogurl on Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:58 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 389
Location: Irvine, CA
wolfesquire wrote:
Richmond/Hampton Roads, Virginia. Their is a felt dealership nearby, but I didn't see a catalog anywhere in the shop. Definitely getting a Felt AR for next year! Now where did I put that wallet........


These dealers have catalogs now:

In Richmond: Endorphin Fitness.
In Hampton Roads/Williamsburg: Bikes Unlimited.

-SD

_________________
www.feltracing.com


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:19 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 389
Location: Irvine, CA
aerogurl wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
There are two frame molds:

The AR FRD, AR2 and AR3 EPS all use electronic shifting with the cable routing entering behind the stem.
The AR1, AR3 Red, AR4 and AR5 all use cable stops which allow mechanical cable housing to run inside the downtube through the frame.

The cable routing was revised to optimize the balance of performance, user service-friendly, and upgrade-able. Behind the stem cabling remains the most aerodynamic location to route the cables but is less desirable for future 11 speed groups' function.

Thanks for all the info Dave. A few questions/clarifications if you don't mind?

1) Is the AR1 frame kit "mechanical only" or just "mechanical friendly" but still able to work with electronic if one is willing to use the DT cable ports?
2) Any plans for a 0mm seatpost option? -25mm to +25mm leaves a large amount of room in between, particularly for those that like a 0mm post.
3) I didn't see the FA framekit in your big MSRP list. Is this an oversight or has the best budget race frame around been eliminated from the lineup? If it is gone, I'll start treating mine a bit more gently. :)

Again, thanks for the info.


The AR1 will work with the same electronic cable routing as the AR FRD. Run the wires in the top of the top tube if you're going electric. I'll get around to taking some photos of my AR1 with SR EPS to show how this works but basically you just "cap" the mechanical ports like you would a Venge, BMC or Trek but you cap both sides and run the e-wires in an aerodynamically superior location along with the brake wire into the top of the top tube.

No plans for a 0mm seatpost. I don't understand why you'd "like" zero offset without knowing the seat angle of our bicycles first. That large room in between is exactly the 5cm range typically found on saddle rails. You aren't missing anything from a fit perspective running the seatpost as it is designed.

We'll still make the FA. Offering it as an aftermarket item is a decision made by each individual distributor of our bicycles globally. The FA frame is not offered in the USA, just as the AR3 with SRAM Red is omitted in favor of the AR3 EPS. Felt USA has FA frames in stock that are used for customer service claims of 2001-2013 F-series aluminum bicycles. This inventory is depleted and replenished as needed and when a new generation of F-aluminum is developed the older versions are sold off and the replacement product updated.

If you were able to buy an FA from the USA it was likely during one of these inventory shifts where a newer version was incomming so we sold the outgoing bikes to our dealers. We occasionally do this with special run frames like the bikes made for Garmin or Argos as well although they never make it to our catalog or website.
I'd would love to do a 25th anniversary custom FA with the original bead blasted black anodized Jim Felt finish with basic heat transfer white decals and perhaps hang an internally routed Ultegra Di2 group on it.
Image
That ~1500g FA frameset is a sweet machine!

-SD

_________________
www.feltracing.com


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:06 pm
Posts: 82
Location: SF Bay Area
SuperDave wrote:
I'd would love to do a 25th anniversary custom FA with the original bead blasted black anodized Jim Felt finish with basic heat transfer white decals and perhaps hang an internally routed Ultegra Di2 group on it.

That ~1500g FA frameset is a sweet machine!

-SD


Yes please! My FA has Di2 wires taped all over the place. An e-friendly FA frame would be most welcome. Metal bikes are cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:02 am
Posts: 2294
Location: On the bike
^ Go CAAD10. Best aluminum frame out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:06 pm
Posts: 82
Location: SF Bay Area
53x12 wrote:
^ Go CAAD10. Best aluminum frame out there.


"Best" is awfully subjective, no? There are many very nice aluminum frames out there. Oh, and the CAAD10 is annoyingly not available as a frameset. Many others are, and that makes them "better" in my opinion.

Regardless, not one of them will win the race for you. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:04 am
Posts: 2360
Location: Mississippi
The CAAD 10 is most certainly available as a frameset.....

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:59 pm 


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