"Where should alloy tubular rims go" discussion

[LouisN]

I'm asking myself why didn't somebody come up with a new semi-deep (27-30mm) profile alloy tubular rim, with a little more rounded profile, and deeper center channel especially for road use with 22-25 mm tubulars ...

I would think it's do-able under 430 g, and such a rim would be near the sweetspot between aero (I mean the tubular-rim combo) and acceptably light...

Louis

[FIJIGabe]

Something like a FLO30 Tubular, maybe? I heard they're working on something for next year, maybe this?

[bikerjulio]

Since I smashed up my only tubular rims (carbon) a few weeks ago, I've been trying to research the issue of light alloy rims.

And by light, I mean why not as light as my Stans clinchers which were under 350g? They are still holding up, and with high tension too, which I have read is the problem with the older design alloy tubular rims.

Nearly every rim I researched was either heavy, or if it was light was being slammed as being noodleish, or having spoke pull through.

The light Ambrosios and Mavics are each heavily criticized on quality, and with nothing less than 28 or more commonly 32 spoke counts available.

It looks as though there has been little interest in developing a modern alloy tubular road rim.

[bikerjulio]

Here's the available road oriented rims (as opposed to wider cross oriented rims), I've looked at so far with weights and a comment:

Ambrosio Nemesis - 460g - tough, P-R standard rim.
Ambrosio F20 Crono - 375g - lots of critics for being weak.
Kinlin TB-25 - 430g
Mavic Reflex - 380g - poor quality criticism.
Velocity Escape - 390g.

With the Velocity's winning out for weight and the ability to build a lower spoke count wheelset, like 20/28.

[TwiggyTN]

I don't see much development happening other than the wider rims in vogue lately. I have 32 hole Reflex on Record with Revs and although they are horribly un-aero the actually aren't so bad in the hills and of course bombproof. They're rock solid. The TB-25's I have built by Ligero are my best all around wheelset however and I have lots of tubular sets, mostly carbon. They feel nice and lively on the bike and don't drag at speed like my Reflex or Shamal tubulars. My only gripe with the TB's is the brakes tracks are pretty soft. I went for a three hour group ride in off/on rain and was shocked at the scoring on the tracks after the ride. Never seen that on the other two sets mentioned above. All three sets have staid very true over some rough roads but I only weigh 148lbs and don't generate big watts so that has a lot to do with it. I might get some escapes some day just for kicks but it could be a while.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4

[LouisN]

I shure would like to see a Stan's Alpha like structure and weight, with a Zipp 101 shape, allowing the tubular tires to sit in deeper than the usual flat section rims !!!

It just takes the machine to produce these shaped "rods", after that, it's easy !!! Come on Kinlin, you can do this !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIGm7pKx3rs"

Louis

[Calnago]

I wouldn't want to see wider rims for tubulars that allow them to "sit deeper". That would detract from the qualities that make tubulars so nice to ride. The completely round shape, unhindered by "sidewalls". All you need for the tubular is a section that allows it to be glued safely, then let the tubular move around with the demands of the ride. Sitting it deep into a rim would in effect change a tubulars handling characteristics to be more like that of a clincher, which no one who has ridden tubulars wants. On the other hand, wider rim profiles for clinchers allow the clincher to spread out more, allowing them to behave a little bit more like a tubular which is good for clincher riders.

[thprice]

Has anyone tried the BHS TB415w Tubular Rim - 23mm Wide - 415g
http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/171.htm

[LionelB]

With carbon tubs being popular these days maybe and people realizing that it's not that hard to own and use tubular I hope that we may see some new alum tubular rims.

If only campy could (re) introduce a neutron ultra tubular....

[HillRPete]

There's just "no" (as in relatively small) market for such a thing. Look at what Pacenti charges for his relatively low volume PL23/SL23. A tubular catering to an even smaller enthusiast crowd would be significantly more expensive.

[LionelB]

Yeah, you are right. Probably too small for large rim companies to care.

[bikerjulio]

Has anyone tried the BHS TB415w Tubular Rim - 23mm Wide - 415g
http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/171.htm

That was the first one I looked at. The site is very undescriptive. Then I found a Velocipede post from Brandon that had a description that should be on their site. To summarize, it is a wide, cross oriented rim, not intended for anything smaller than 25mm tubulars.

[neverwasbeen]

I've been looking for some alloy tubular rims as well lately for crit racing. I asked Pacenti and H+Son if they would be bringing out a modern 23mm wide alloy tubular - both said they are considering it, however no firm plans . . . to paraphrase their responses.

So without any new ones on the market, the conclusions I drew from the currently available models was:

Kinlin TB25 - cheap, very stiff and 25mm deep, but narrow, perhaps better suited to 19-22mm tires? A bit out dated in the world of 23mm wide rims?

Hed C2 - great rims, but expensive, nigh on impossible to get and only come in 24 drilling and above.

Velocity Major Tom - good width, but rim bed designed for cycle cross and does not suit road tires very well.

Velocity Escape - narrower and more suited to hill / general riding. Not robust enough for lower spoke count crit racing (i.e. 20/24 or 20/28 builds)

Ambrosio Nemesis - good for a 32 spoke pave build, not for crits

Ambrosio Crono - good for hill climbing, not hard flat racing and I have heard issues with strength / quality

Mavic reflex - similar to the ambrosio crono

BHS TB415W - similar to Major Tom, but more suited to road. Initial feedback is that 23mm tires would not mount that well, so need 25mm plus tires. Also lacks depth at 22mm.

On balance, I think I'll be going with the TB-25s to build for our local crit races . . .

[LouisN]

That's why I think a giant company like Kinlin should just draw the thing (only difference if the alloy "rod" shape), and put it in it's line. Their manufacturing cost must be very low compared to the other manufacturers. Easy to see when you look at them closely. I don't really care, as they're cheap, and very reliable, they're doing their job very well ( I have all of the Kinlin models except the XR380).

I wouldn't want to see wider rims for tubulars that allow them to "sit deeper". That would detract from the qualities that make tubulars so nice to ride. The completely round shape, unhindered by "sidewalls". All you need for the tubular is a section that allows it to be glued safely, then let the tubular move around with the demands of the ride. Sitting it deep into a rim would in effect change a tubulars handling characteristics to be more like that of a clincher, which no one who has ridden tubulars wants. On the other hand, wider rim profiles for clinchers allow the clincher to spread out more, allowing them to behave a little bit more like a tubular which is good for clincher riders.

I see your point, but my opinion is the traditionnal tubular alloy rim market is living in the past, opposed to the modern carbon rim market that adjusted to the new "demands", namely "aero-ness" and "lightness".
While I agree with you on the better ride characteristics that the new rim-tire combo brought to the clincher type wheels, I still think the alloy rims could copy what the newer carbon tubular rims are approaching these days. Not necessarely to change the ride characteristics of the tubulars, but to have better aerodynamics with the tubular-rim combo. Of course, I wouldn't want to have an incrusted tubular inside the channel. But I'm shure some little changes to the shape of the channel, maybe an angled brake surface ( ) combined with a rounder profile of a Kinlkin TB25, strectched to 27-28mmm would shure accomplish my wishes . A little fiddling with wall thicknesses, and Voilà ...!!!

Louis

[Calnago]

LouisN: yes, wasn't disagreeing with you about a potential new alloy rim. Just pointing out that the whole greater aero concept of a wider rim, when used with a tubular, can only be achieved if you actually do sink the tubular into the rim to get rid of the non-aero tire to rim interface. Trouble with doing that is you then lose the handling characteristics of a nice tubular.
Personally, I don't give a rats ass about areoness if it means giving up the ride quality of my tubulars. Here's the rub... For years manufacturers have been trying to make clinchers ride as well as tubulars. So far they have just not succeeded. I don't think there was a single team in Lè Tour using clinchers this year, ignoring the occasional TT where handling takes a back seat to straight line aero performance.
However, no manufacturer is ever going to get rich selling tubulars to the few "regular folks" who are willing to accept what it takes to be able to ride tubulars on a regular basis. The market simply isn't big enough. And clinchers are "close enough" that for the majority it is the best choice. I don't see that changing.
I am running Veloflex Arrenberg 25's on a set of Boras and they feel nice. I was afraid they might feel a bit "balooney", but they really don't. And if I am less "aero" because of the irregular tire to rim interface, I think I'd have to be in some lab to tell me that because I certainly can't notice it on the road and it doesn't detract from my enjoyment.
But I've sidetracked your initial question. I like alloy rims. It would be great if they could somehow match the lightness of carbon. I'm with ya on all that. In fact I was out on my Nemesis/Record wheels yesterday and hands down still believe they are the nicest riding wheels I've been on. And I can brake so predictably. And I'm not worried about heat build up, or resins melting. And if I were to break a spoke I'd likely still be able to ride home. But, carbon is sexy and carbon sells. And it is light and strong. As with most things there are trade offs. And when it comes to the highest level of performance, where tubulars are mostly being used, unless they can somehow make an alloy that is as light and strong and workable as carbon, it may be a losing battle.