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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 366
Location: Irvine, CA
prendrefeu wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
Hydro shifters? If you are referring to the SRAM images leaked, those were a joke. If you are referring to the ACROS(?) system shown at Eurobike a couple seasons ago, then yes, their hydro shift housing would fit through our mechanically routed internal holes on the downtube of the AR1, AR3R, AR4, and AR5. You'd need the hydro cable guides off the Z2R or Z3R model. I have no idea how to detach and/or bleed that system though.


Ummm... no, not the "leaked images" - those we determined to be fake long ago.
ACROS is developing a Road shift system, as verified at Interbike 2012 and from insider contacts is very close to release.
... and then, finally, word from your competition: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113669&start=90#p996220" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As you know, WW aren't fools to fall for the fake images that float around the internet!

That said, the reason I asked is because some of us choose to keep a frame or components for several years and upgrading selectively rather than buying new things all the time. Well, some of us. I like this frame, and potentially if the geometry works, it is worth consideration - but I want to know if it will accommodate the near future. :wink:
The new AR series has two separate and distinct frames: one designed for eletronic, the other for mechanical.
On the other side, the newest Cervelo RCA has one frame that can take on all three drivetrain & shift options, with a simple switch of some small grommets.


SuperDave wrote:
Geo will be published with the web launch to coincide with EB. If I were better at cut and pasting from excel into this BB I'd drop them in here but I trust you can wait a week.


Thanks!


We have a frame designed for all three drivetrain & shift options = AR1, 3R, 4, 5, F1, 2, 3, FC, DA, all carbon Z, carbon ZW. In order to make the AR FRD and F FRD as light, stiff, and aero as possible, the holes and structural reinforcements needed to punch the ~8mm holes in the frame for mechanical and hydruallic shifting were eliminated.

We had convertible frame designs in 2009 for Di2 and mechanical systems. I'm aware that Cervelo is catching up.
I, too, cannot comment on potential drivetrain developments that are not made public but we are made aware of such options by those manufacturers because they are keen on making their products compatible with our frames.

-SD

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 366
Location: Irvine, CA
53x12 wrote:
"the other is coming from a substantially larger company."
It is ok Prend you can say SRAM on here. I don't think that is any secret.


I don't think he's referring to SRAM.
-SD

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:14 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 2080
Location: Denmark
No, he's not. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:38 am
Posts: 497
prendrefeu wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
Hydro shifters? If you are referring to the SRAM images leaked, those were a joke. If you are referring to the ACROS(?) system shown at Eurobike a couple seasons ago, then yes, their hydro shift housing would fit through our mechanically routed internal holes on the downtube of the AR1, AR3R, AR4, and AR5. You'd need the hydro cable guides off the Z2R or Z3R model. I have no idea how to detach and/or bleed that system though.


Ummm... no, not the "leaked images" - those we determined to be fake long ago.
ACROS is developing a Road shift system, as verified at Interbike 2012 and from insider contacts is very close to release.
... and then, finally, word from your competition: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113669&start=90#p996220" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As you know, WW aren't fools to fall for the fake images that float around the internet!


Not to derail this thread (is there a thread already?), but what are the benefits of hydro shifting? Hydraulics aren't often used where precise position and indexing is necessary, because the volume changes with temperature. Hydraulics are great for low friction, and for changing leverage ratios without using pulleys and such, none of which is really necessary in a shifting setup. Electronics should be superior in every way except possibly water resistance and weight (although hydro lines aren't super lightweight either). Sounds like they're trying to be different to be different, not for any technical reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7518
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
Let's not go OT :)
It's been covered before, many threads, just search for "hydraulic shifting" here on WW and it's been debated (and covered, including cost issues)

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:33 pm 
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Location: Irvine, CA
53x12 wrote:
I agree with you BmanX. I just want to wait for some reviews/ride reports, stack and reach numbers, get a chance myself to ride it and need to check out the rear brake setup. Hope it is very user friendly. Hate having something too difficult and finicky to deal with.



More on the seatpost and rear brake installation and QR pix here:
http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/08/21/fel ... tri-bikes/
Image
Image

-SD

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:02 am 
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Posts: 4435
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada
I would love to know how that Shimano rear brake adaptor works.

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:50 am 
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Location: Irvine, CA
BmanX wrote:
I would love to know how that Shimano rear brake adaptor works.


Image
Image

I don't see the SM-CB90 listed on Shimano's tech docs site but it has been around for a while.
A few thousand hits on the google, too.

If you are running wider rims already and don't need the quick release function to get the wheel out past the tire it is possible to just use their SM-CA70:
Image

This gives a few mm of adjustment if you wanted to have a barrel adjuster function only and didn't need the QR.

-SD

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:51 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1629
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
What does "35% faster" mean?
If I can do 20mph at X watts now, I can do 27mph on this bike? Somehow I don't think that'll happen.

BTW thanks Dave for posting intelligent and informative stuff here. I wish more manufacturers did so.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:56 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:53 pm
Posts: 12
Dave-
Just for clarification is the Shimano dual post spec the same as the TRP dual post spec the same as the TriRig Omega SV spec? Or are they all different?


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:03 am 
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Location: Irvine, CA
pyrahna wrote:
Dave-
Just for clarification is the Shimano dual post spec the same as the TRP dual post spec the same as the TriRig Omega SV spec? Or are they all different?


No, they are different.
Image

The TRP brakes require a dedicated pivot boss to be included with the frame with all sorts of specific dimensions.
Image

Shimano's direct mount brakes use threaded bosses into the frame, like a water bottle boss instead of bonded-in studs or bonded in nuts that house the studs. There are a few cases of those studs weakening over time causing more than one recall.

The Shimano system will most likely be offered by other brake companies like TRP, not sure if the big guys will follow suit though.

-SD

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:32 am 
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Location: Irvine, CA
eric wrote:
What does "35% faster" mean?
If I can do 20mph at X watts now, I can do 27mph on this bike? Somehow I don't think that'll happen.

BTW thanks Dave for posting intelligent and informative stuff here. I wish more manufacturers did so.


I'm sorry, "faster" was a low hanging adjective. Admittedly, it was poorly used.

In general terms, a decent round tube bike has about 1000g of average drag in a 20/0/20
A good aero bike will have 800g
The best aero bikes available today tend to focus on aerodynamics as a much greater metric than say weight, ride quality, torsional stiffness, and some component integration.
Those were once very rare, bikes like the KG196, Vitus ZX-1, road-going prototypes of the GT SB and Vengence, 3Rensho, KHS's Zinn crafted bikes pioneered "aero road"
The best aerodynamically performing road bikes available today have 600g

When a previous design moves from the "good 800g" category into the "exceptional 600g" category you might see this 200g reduction displayed in some basic format such as 200/800 = 25%

The simpletons like myself just say shit like "25% faster"

The reality is a very good rider in a very good road position will generate upwards of 3000g of drag.
Colby Pearce probably has the best position I've ever seen on a road bike, I'd bet he's around 2500-2700g. Drafting off him is like drafting off a tennis ball.
Image
Image
Big guys like Boonen and Fabian are likely up around 3500-3700g @ 30mph.
Image
Image
Image
Image

Despite Tom insisting that the cobbles are no place for carbon aero wheels, he's changed his tune after HH, Fab, and others tackled the stones.

Now Boomboom agrees aero is important.
Image

So back to my absurd claim, there really is a 200g savings from currently available good frames and if you're power limited like Colby (sorry CB) and can get 200g/2500g savings that is going to help from a percentage standpoint more than the supercharged 400w motor Fabian has at 200/3700.

To circle back on your previous comment, I've seen first hand bike + rider aerodynamics take a given constant power output and give it's pilot 7mph.

-SD

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:45 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:02 am
Posts: 2208
Location: On the bike
SuperDave wrote:
Image



Nice shout out to Colby and my team, 'Michelob Ultra - Big Shark Racing.' I will echo SD and agree that Colby has the nicest position on a road bike that I have seen in person. Not to mention the guy is fast. Really fast.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:58 am 
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Posts: 12
Did you just say you have seen a 200 gram drag difference make a 7mph speed difference? Or are you talking about a 200g frame difference and having the rider going from sitting straight up to down in the drops?

SuperDave wrote:

To circle back on your previous comment, I've seen first hand bike + rider aerodynamics take a given constant power output and give it's pilot 7mph.

-SD


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:58 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:17 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 366
Location: Irvine, CA
53x12 wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
Nice shout out to Colby and my team, 'Michelob Ultra - Big Shark Racing.' I will echo SD and agree that Colby has the nicest position on a road bike that I have seen in person. Not to mention the guy is fast. Really fast.


I agree, fastest 4km of my life.

Image
Image
Image

I think he went on to win Points and Madison, too.

-SD

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