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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:52 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:49 am 
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Tapeworm wrote:
Training.

KISS principle applies. I am not starting from scratch per se, I have kept a good level of fitness for a while especially with the BJJ (which I still plan to compete in) however my riding volume to date is negligible. The strength and conditioning is there mainly for work and the BJJ and hence will only be dropped a couple of weeks from the main event.

My training will consist of the following format:-

Mon – 2x20mins /alt week/ First effort is max effort as a FTP test.
Tues – S&C / 4x30sec intervals / BJJ training.
Wed – 1-2hrs easy ride.
Thurs – S&C 3x3mins.
Fri – Rest
Sat – Long ride inc short hills/ alt week / rest.
Sun – Short easy ride/BJJ training.


KISS is good. Only thing I would say is to manage this routine in blocks of say 1-2 weeks.

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Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:49 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:45 pm 
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I'm back, baby!

Ok, after settling into new role at work, shuffling round some life priorities and hardening the f*** up I have gotten this cycling thing back on track. Still have to retain the lifting, and I'll still do the BJJ, but both are tuned down a bit until after Nationals at the very least. The other thing to have changed is the simple realisation that I will not be able to have power for all the sessions and that many sessions, because of travel etc, will not be "quantified" in any real way, hard for a power junkie to get their head around!

What sparked this was that there was a club TT last weekend that came up at short notice and I thought, "no bike training for several months, haven't done a proper TT in years, why not?" It would be a a chance to try out the "new" P3 which still hadn't been raced.

It was a horrible TT, cold, over 500m of climbing total and longer than I really wanted at 45km. Paced poorly, mainly because I had no idea what power should have been. Held 258 for the first 20mins or so but then faded rapidly, the two ~150 meter climbs killed me. Ended up with 209 watts avg and still cracked the top 10. I'll take that. I can only assume that I am aero as and was up agains a weak field. Oh, and there may have only been 14 people there. Regardless, it was a good hit out, all the reasons why I like TTs came flooding back.

For training most session are either going to be brutally hard or just long and easy and will flux heaps as that life shit gets in the way ;) But every day I will do something bike related, except for rest days of course. I am buoyed by the fact that 1) power hasn't dropped off too much, 2) thanks to some hard S&C work and vicious man-flu I am about 79kgs ATM, 3) have some better winter woolies to deal with the sub zero temps in the morning and 4) in a better mental headspace just to compete and not focus on the result... at this stage :D Next club TT is in late Aug, masters State Champs in late Sept, and then Masters Games in early Oct and then Nationals Masters TT in mid Oct.

Will need some more kit though, disc and a deep front beckon.

So, here are the sessions for this week (although not noted all training includes a 5mins warm up and a 5min cool down minimum):-

Mon: Weights session. Tabata style efforts [20sec effort/10 sec rest x 8], 4 mins rest, repeat.
Tues: 3 x 3mins effort/3mins recovery.
Wed: 1.2hrs easy spin.
Thursday: Rest
Fri: O-lifting and Tabata style efforts [20sec effort/10 sec rest x 8], 4 mins rest, repeat. Then 1.2hrs easy spin.
Sat: 2 x 5mins effort with 1 min recovery in between, under/over style. 249, 257 watts.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:02 am 
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I've heard lots of the supposed benefits of the tabata style intervals, but what kinds of benefits have you experienced with them from training? Do they actually help with stuff like TTs?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:04 am 
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^ The Tabata intervals are what they are, i.e.: short high intensity aerobic intervals. Personally I do find them useful, but in terms of cycling I am relatively untrained at which point almost anything will work. Interspliced with a long slow rides I have found them very useful for race simulation etc. They are just another tool in the toolbox to build specific forms of fitness, however the main benefit is they fit neatly into a 20min window, and as they have proven results I have no excuse for not doing *something*.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:30 pm 
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My understanding of the Tabata intervals is, that if executed correctly, there is no way you would be able to do two sets. You will most likely not even make 4-5 reps the first few times you try. The protocol states the 20 second efforts are done at maximum intensity (i.e. a full out sprint).

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:16 pm 
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^ You understand incorrectly. 170% of VO2max which is for me ~472watts. There will be a natural decay to the power on each subsequent interval but its hardly "all out".

For ref, the study in question:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:13 am 
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Which method did you use to determine your VO2 max power?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:02 am 
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^ Option number 3 ----> http://www.trainingandracingwithapowerm ... power.html

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:54 pm 
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From the study linked, I'm not sure I understand the frequency of the protocol. "5 d.wk-1 for 6 wk" Is that 5 days per week for 6 weeks? That's a lot of Tabata!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:58 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
^ You understand incorrectly. 170% of VO2max which is for me ~472watts. There will be a natural decay to the power on each subsequent interval but its hardly "all out".

For ref, the study in question:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


If you want to talk semantics re. tabata training, the link you refer to does not state multiple sets, just one of 7-8 reps (even though they call it sets they are talking about repetitions). Furthermore, that particular study had subjects do 5 or 6 (can't remember exactly) days per week of Tabata training (as in, 1x 7-8 repetitions), and 1 day of steady state training; according to your training plan you are only doing 2 training sessions a week that include a Tabata workout (the study you reference does also not include any other exercise other than the Tabata sessions). Even the man himself states that more research is required (http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/eng/html/rese ... mi_t.html/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Now, back to real life. There is one group of athletes I know of (there may be more) that do a lot of work based on the Tabata protocol. These are speedskaters (Tabata used to be a coach on the Japanese speed skating team...), and in particular the ones targeting the 1000 and 1500m. If you have a chance, have a look at how they incorporate Tabata in their training sessions; there is no one that is able to do two sets in one sessions as they do go "all out".

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:08 pm 
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If you went "all out" you wouldn't even be able to do two repetitions, much less two sets. The article about Tabata linked says intense, exhausting, and even dangerous (for the untrained), but it never says "all out". "All out" is by definition not repeatable.

Just think about it from a practical perspective. I can do about 325-350w for a VO2 type interval. 170% of that would be 550-600W. Now, if I just did 550-600w straight I could maintain it for about 1 minute. So, 160 seconds of it (8x20s), separated by very short rest intervals seems possible, maybe, after a couple of failures i'd imagine. But, if you told me to go "all out" for 20s I'd be looking at something in the 900-1,000w range, and I would need several minutes to recover after only 1 rep, and even then I probably wouldn't be able to repeat it effectively.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:10 pm 
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^ I am not sure I understand the confusion. As rightly pointed out by Woz if you go "full out" on a 20second effort then this an alactic effort and having done work on the track for the kilo, yes, you are just able completely spent on just a single effort and may not even be able to back up for a second.

I used the efforts as described in the study as, and I quote myself, "short high intensity aerobic intervals", just a way to induce a high range of aerobic stress instead of doing steady state.

@HakeemT And nowhere in the study does it say they sprinted the first couple of efforts (hence the 170% of VO2). We can argue semantics but I look at the adaptation yielded from doing an interval of any type. Going "all out sprint" for the first couple of effort will not yield the adaptations I want if I cannot sustain and repeat the efforts for at least 3-4mins. Hence I do the "style" of effort which will allow me to do this. And I have the bucket at the ready.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:18 pm 
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I wasn't referring to the study at all; I was simply talking about how the Tabata protocol is typically used. Speedskaters do go all out; so every effort will show a decrease in power output (you even mentioned the 'natural decay of power' yourself), but the goal is to build fatigue and train the body to 'push through the lactic acid' (I know, hardly scientific terminology but that's how it's often referred to by speedskaters).

You referenced the study in question (after telling me I misunderstood Tabata intervals), and then I simply pointed out that your training sessions do not follow the Tabata protocol (either the one described in the study you referenced, or whatever speedskaters typically incorporate in their training).

Now, with all this being said, you mentioned you're doing Tabata 'style' training for racing simulation purposes. I believe that the 'speedskater Tabata training' is more useful than the Tabata protocol/study you referenced in this regard.
In a race, either when the break is established or during the pointy end when there is a flurry of attacks, you want to be able to cover the moves and react to accelerations. You cover one move and seconds later another attack goes; you bridge across, the pace drops and then there's another surge... putting out massive watts once is nice, but oftentimes you need more than one acceleration in the closing kilometers of a race.

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Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:18 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:09 pm 
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Given that my primary goals are time trials, on a bike, that last for 20mins or more I will stick with the method as currently utilised ie: approx 170% of Vo2max for 20secs with 10sec recovery between intervals for 8 rounds. I then have a rest and repeat. High intensity aerobic intervals.

If I take up speed skating I will consider altering the types of intervals I do, to a something-that-isn't-Tabata-intervals-but-is-short-repeated-burst-of-alactic-range efforts.

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