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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:58 am 
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Touché Rick!

But to make a detailed comparison you'd need more accurate equipment than could be afforded by an off the shelf PM (unless there are some real funky biomechanical going on, ones where a power meter would not be required).

Efficiency would also taken into consideration aspect of the bodies functions (gas monitors, core temperature etc). This gets overlooked in the arguements for "pedalling in circles".

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:58 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:33 am 
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I appolagize if i started a pissing contest... I just wanted to know at what point is a cyclist considered reasonably trained to where they should just stick to specified training on the bike.


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:46 am 
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Oh this always happens when things like weights, yoga, power cranks, supplements, stretching etc gets brought up in just about any cycling forum out there. Just part of the fun :mrgreen:

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:52 am 
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artray wrote:
It's a friend I ride with who has just bought a custom Viner bike from Italy and they did a bike fit for him.
It must be hard for you to accept without the data . :lol:


So the neck muscles, the ones that hold the head up all day, every day, suddenly are too weak and are fatiguing and giving him a sore neck?

So my conclusions would be from this that either a) your friend is not very conditioned for riding and/or b) has been setup poorly on his rather expensive bike. Which would be a shame.

How anyone holds their head up for more than a few hours on the without doing neck strengthening exercises I'll never know.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:29 am 
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If anyone needs copies of medical journal articles (not already available through pubmed), please let me know as I have access to quite a few though uni.

Cheers
I


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:30 am 
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Location: Australia
If anyone needs copies of medical journal articles (not available through pubmed), please let me know as I have access to several through uni.

Cheers,
I


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:34 am 
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Hello TP

Tapeworm wrote:
@cookiemonster, Ok some questions if you could clarify, I am a little confused.

1) you went to two physios but still a self-assessment? What did the physios say and how did this compare/differ from each and the self-assessment?
2) yes the abs can work to stabilise the trunk but only if there are other muscles with an equivalent force working against them otherwise you get flexion.
3) Zone 2 most definitely can help 1 min power. Kilo riders have to do a little more than just standing starts and short efforts to go sub 1:05. There is a significant aerobic component.


1) Yes - that's correct. The first was a general physio, the second a sports-specific-specialist type. Both gave me the same story. I wasnt looking for a different diagnosis particularly, but clearer explanations as to what a "lack of core stability" actually meant in practise. So what if I couldnt balance on one leg? Why should I care? The sports physio was better placed to explain the high-level compensation and fatigue aspects of having poor core stability. The self assessment was due to me not being completely clear what "core stability" is and isnt, how it would affect me and, most important of all, how would I know if my core stability had improved or not? The self assessment gives me the marker in the same way as an 8-weekly power test protocol.


2) Yes, I understand you; if I tense up my abs Bruce Lee-style then I guess my lower back tenses up in response. The distinction here though is between using the "local stabilisers" like the abs to stabilise yourself (which fatigue quickly and restrict your breathing) and your "global stabilisers" such as your glutes, the muscles with broad attachments that can generate low force over a wide area for a long time without fatigue.


3) My understanding is the kilo riders (and sprinters, TT'ers and everyone else) does zone 2 work in order to build an aerobic base which is required for recovery and repeatability both in training and in racing; not to directly increase their 1 min or other short term power. It sounds like you are proposing that zone 2 training is an effective way to increase anaerobic power production? Or are you suggesting that as 1 min power has an aerobic component albeit smaller than the anaerobic component, zone 2 work can improve the aerobic component and therefore you go faster?

I agree with the general principle of the second point, but in my case I had a reasonably good aerobic power (placed top 10 in a 3-day, 100 mile each day, event with lots of climbing for example). I doubt that my aerobic capacity was so poor that it was the limiting factor on my 1 min power. Perhaps I misunderstand you?


Two further points:

Your "we use our core when we sleep" statement confuses me. You may have a different understanding of what core stability refers to than I do. My definition is "Core stability' describes the ability of the trunk to support force production, and withstand the forces acting upon it" this does not happen in your sleep, nor is it trained and developed in your sleep. What is your definition of core stability?

And

Quote:
You should read more carefully what I state. And what I dogmatic about and for what reason.


Seriously :) you type a lot of posts and I read a lot of posts. You can be pretty sloppy with your definitions and explanations (remember "staggering contradictions"?) and you have a tendency to belittle other peoples explanations without further investigation - the neck strength thing is example, you are belittling the OP's advice which by his account worked, and are proposing alternative approaches without asking why he choose that route, the specifics of what he advised or how he determined that it was his advice that actually had the effect he feels it had.

You are clearly interested by this subject and have a good broad knowledge. I would find your writing more accessible if you slowed it down a touch and responded in a more considered style more often - as you've done in the post to which I'm replying

Cheers

jon

Edit - typos!


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:15 pm 
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cookiemonster wrote:
1) Yes - that's correct. The first was a general physio, the second a sports-specific-specialist type. Both gave me the same story. I wasnt looking for a different diagnosis particularly, but clearer explanations as to what a "lack of core stability" actually meant in practise. So what if I couldnt balance on one leg? Why should I care? The sports physio was better placed to explain the high-level compensation and fatigue aspects of having poor core stability. The self assessment was due to me not being completely clear what "core stability" is and isnt, how it would affect me and, most important of all, how would I know if my core stability had improved or not? The self assessment gives me the marker in the same way as an 8-weekly power test protocol.


That's still not much of diagnosis. I am still not clear on the suggest remedies for this by the physio.

Quote:
2) Yes, I understand you; if I tense up my abs Bruce Lee-style then I guess my lower back tenses up in response. The distinction here though is between using the "local stabilisers" like the abs to stabilise yourself (which fatigue quickly and restrict your breathing) and your "global stabilisers" such as your glutes, the muscles with broad attachments that can generate low force over a wide area for a long time without fatigue.


Interesting. It is often an over-utilisation of the prime movers for stabilisation which is associated with poor co-ordination and utilisation of the muscular system in sports performance.

I guess this a mis-understanding of how the "core" (just to re-emphasise how I loathe the term but everyone seems to know what it is) works. There is a whole network of muscles in the trunk of the body. These flick on and off constantly to keep us from flopping over like a dead fish and to allow things like the leg pushing a pedal to occur. With the correct co-ordination of muscular activation there would be all sort of funky stuff going on. Primarily would be the inability to pedal a bike. Or walk perhaps.


Quote:
3) My understanding is the kilo riders (and sprinters, TT'ers and everyone else) does zone 2 work in order to build an aerobic base which is required for recovery and repeatability both in training and in racing; not to directly increase their 1 min or other short term power. It sounds like you are proposing that zone 2 training is an effective way to increase anaerobic power production? Or are you suggesting that as 1 min power has an aerobic component albeit smaller than the anaerobic component, zone 2 work can improve the aerobic component and therefore you go faster?


Yes, pure sprinters do very little aerobic work. However in something like the kilo (which for the very good is around a minute effort) there is significant aerobic input, depending on the rider, anywhere up to 45% (maybe a tad more). Even kieren riders have to have some aerobic fitness otherwise they'd pop just following the derny. All of this is relative of course. A sprinter may have an FTP of around 250-300 watts. Which seems decent for we mere mortals. But compare that to a 450-500watt FTP and they're small fry. Also consider the performance of omnium riders who are aerobic beasts, they can still do a sub 1:05 kilo. And no weights in sight for a least one World Champ. And most omnium riders do most of their training on the road.


Quote:
I agree with the general principle of the second point, but in my case I had a reasonably good aerobic power (placed top 10 in a 3-day, 100 mile each day, event with lots of climbing for example). I doubt that my aerobic capacity was so poor that it was the limiting factor on my 1 min power. Perhaps I misunderstand you?


Without detailed information about power output, training loads, rest, recovery, nutrition etc I will on this rare occasion reserve judgement as to why or why not your aerobic capacity may or may not have been lacking.



Quote:
Your "we use our core when we sleep" statement confuses me. You may have a different understanding of what core stability refers to than I do. My definition is "Core stability' describes the ability of the trunk to support force production, and withstand the forces acting upon it" this does not happen in your sleep, nor is it trained and developed in your sleep. What is your definition of core stability?


Ah! Once again, read closer.
Tapeworm wrote:
...everyone does realise that their "core" is working every second they aren't horizontal sleeping right?...
(emphasise added)

The point being that strength is (usually) not the issue. The core is being worked every second we are walking, sitting, standing, and consequently performing any action. Cycling (aerobic) involves quite low forces, unless there are general postural and stability problems (and my caveat of rehab work comes in there), any given person has enough "strength" to cycle pain and injury free. What people do lack is often sufficient fitness to allow their "core" to work correctly over a long period of time - as we tire the muscles throughout the body will fatigue - and also often an incorrect fit on the bike - causing biomechanic issues will once again, lead to premature fatigue in certain areas. A good bike fit and I mean really good really is at the crux of effective cycling performance.


Quote:
and you have a tendency to belittle other peoples explanations without further investigation - the neck strength thing is example, you are belittling the OP's advice which by his account worked, and are proposing alternative approaches without asking why he choose that route, the specifics of what he advised or how he determined that it was his advice that actually had the effect he feels it had.


Only on the basis of what they post. Friend had sore neck, neck strengthening exercises fixed it. Really :roll: I see that as a very good example of something that should be belittled. If they state that "due to a neck injury sustained in a car accident it left a slight degeneration of the muscle around the cervicothoriac area. Specific strength conditioning work helped to correct the muscle imbalance and consequently alleviated the neck pain whilst riding" I wouldn't have much of an issue with that. BUT they didn't.

So the issue now being that should anyone with a similar issue read this they then think that this is fixed by "strengthing the neck", which they do and maybe it "fixes" the problem. But without correctly diagnosing the problem, without actually working out what is going on with the body then all these home remedies get peddled out by the collective wisdom instead. So yeah, buddy fixes his neck by strengthening it and then ten years later wonders why there is excess wear along the C1-C2 vertebrae causing a spinal disc herniation. Then buddy will know pain.

So yes I belittle and am curt. (Replace the "r" if anyone wants).

Here's a tip, there is a difference between a case study and anecdote. If more "case studies" were posted then there would be less ambiguity. And more decent things to argue about.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:02 pm 
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devinci wrote:
artray wrote:
devinci wrote:
"Unless you have 25-35hours a week dedicated to training, I will say your ime would be better spent riding and recovering. I dont know anything about you and I dont care. Also, core strength has really nothing to do with going fast on a tt bike. Power, good position, pacing has to do with going fast on a tt bike.

Of course I speak for those who actually care about the time they invest in their training and the results they get from it. Though not many people get the real meaning of racing VS cycling for fun and hammering in the saturday morning group ride.

Purely anecdotal, but I havent done core work since 3 years, and it doesnt harm my cycling performance."

"All these people i speak for.The ones who care etc etc. The one's who agree with me blah blah blah" .First you were telling me how much time i have and now your speaking for all the people who care etc etc. Well I care about my riding. I care about my training. I care about the improvements i make. I am not out to prove who's right or wrong, but that there are many ways for many people and unless you try new things you will just stagnate .


"I honnestly dont care about what you do. Just dont come and say core strength is good because A. Schleck does it, its just plain dumb.

Go buy some magazines, they are filled with those kind of myths, but please stop poluting the training section of this forum and use the search function.

Also wattage group is super useful.

Someone should lock this endless borIng topic
"
If I have something to say on this thread and you don't agree, well tough sh$t. If I think there is a benefit in doing weights or core work, i will say so. If you don't agree that's your opinion, but your opinion is no more valid than mine or anyone else on this thread .


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:23 pm 
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""Only on the basis of what they post. Friend had sore neck, neck strengthening exercises fixed it. Really :roll: I see that as a very good example of something that should be belittled. If they state that "due to a neck injury sustained in a car accident it left a slight degeneration of the muscle around the cervicothoriac area. Specific stre

So the issue now being that should anyone with a similar issue read this they then think that this is fixed by "strengthing the neck", which they do and maybe it "fixes" the problem. But without correctly diagnosing the problem, without actually working out what is going on with the body then all these home remedies get peddled out by the collective wisdom instead. So yeah, buddy fixes his neck by strengthening it and then ten years later wonders why there is excess wear along the C1-C2 vertebrae causing a spinal disc herniation. Then buddy will know pain"
I was not claiming that this will solve everybodys neck problem .It was specific to my friend and it solved his issues. Fact. N


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:36 pm 
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artray wrote:
I was not claiming that this will solve everybodys neck problem .It was specific to my friend and it solved his issues. Fact. N


Yeah. Did you read my post? How comprehensive was your assessment of your friends neck? What's his history like? Range of movement ? Biomechanic issues?

As I said, strengthening may indeed work. But the strengthening may mask an underlining issue(s) which may then royaly f*** up in a few years time. Take that into consideration did we?

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
artray wrote:
I was not claiming that this will solve everybodys neck problem .It was specific to my friend and it solved his issues. Fact. N


"Yeah. Did you read my post? How comprehensive was your assessment of your friends neck? What's his history like? Range of movement ? Biomechanic issues?

As I said, strengthening may indeed work. But the strengthening may mask an underlining issue(s) which may then royaly f*** up in a few years time. Take that into consideration did we?"

" Did we?" My friend's neck problem is really winding you up ,ha ha . Maybe his head will fall off in ten years, who knows. What I do know is that he's doing a lot of mileage for the Etape and has no issues. He's a very fit chap and also does a lot of running and is very aware of his physical and mental well being .The exercises he did were quite gentle and they have worked for him. Just accept it and move on . :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:27 pm 
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They're "gentle" neck exercises? So how much strengthening actually occurred then? What exercises were actually employed to do this? And how did you ascertain that improvement had taken place? Simply that the pain had gone?

Outstanding work. :roll:

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:51 pm 
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artray wrote:
devinci wrote:
artray wrote:
devinci wrote:
"Unless you have 25-35hours a week dedicated to training, I will say your ime would be better spent riding and recovering. I dont know anything about you and I dont care. Also, core strength has really nothing to do with going fast on a tt bike. Power, good position, pacing has to do with going fast on a tt bike.

Of course I speak for those who actually care about the time they invest in their training and the results they get from it. Though not many people get the real meaning of racing VS cycling for fun and hammering in the saturday morning group ride.

Purely anecdotal, but I havent done core work since 3 years, and it doesnt harm my cycling performance."

"All these people i speak for.The ones who care etc etc. The one's who agree with me blah blah blah" .First you were telling me how much time i have and now your speaking for all the people who care etc etc. Well I care about my riding. I care about my training. I care about the improvements i make. I am not out to prove who's right or wrong, but that there are many ways for many people and unless you try new things you will just stagnate .


"I honnestly dont care about what you do. Just dont come and say core strength is good because A. Schleck does it, its just plain dumb.

Go buy some magazines, they are filled with those kind of myths, but please stop poluting the training section of this forum and use the search function.

Also wattage group is super useful.

Someone should lock this endless borIng topic
"
If I have something to say on this thread and you don't agree, well tough sh$t. If I think there is a benefit in doing weights or core work, i will say so. If you don't agree that's your opinion, but your opinion is no more valid than mine or anyone else on this thread .


But you can still search and post in existing thread as this is poluting the forum and it will eventually become like on some uncomprehensible forum. I dont mind your opinion, keep looking at pros and do what they do, good for you if it makes you faster


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:51 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
"They're "gentle" neck exercises? So how much strengthening actually occurred then? What exercises were actually employed to do this? And how did you ascertain that improvement had taken place? Simply that the pain had gone?

Outstanding work". :roll:

My friend would get a sore neck towards the end of a long ride. He then decided to do some gentle exercises to alleviate the problem ,i.e. strengthen his neck . He now does not have a problem .I do not know exactly what exercises he was doing, only that some F1 drivers do the same exercises to alleviate the neck issues that can occur in racing there cars . It has worked for him .That really is all i can tell you. If His head does fall off, you will be the first to know :)


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