HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 135 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2342
claus wrote:
> How to you measure a "more efficient Pedal stroke"?

You measure the power input (how much power do your muscle generate) and the power output (how much power actually contributes to forward motion). That was easy.


And I doubt many would have the equipment to accurately measure this.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:49 pm 


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2342
cookiemonster wrote:
Tapeworm habitually goes down the route of "studies show..." without reference to said studies...


:search:

Been posted on this forum many times over.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:00 pm
Posts: 73
Hang on a minute tapeworm. You said: ""The contradictions within your anecdote are staggering."

So call them out!

I'm happy to talk this through and I'll answer your questions (I reckon its a interesting little case study :) ), but before I'd like to lay this one to rest. What were the contradictions that were so staggering?

jon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 12:54 am
Posts: 79
cookiemonster wrote:
our "strawman" statement doesnt detract from the fact that you're ready and willing to use personal experience stories when it suits you, but claim that they are worthless and belittle others when they follow suit.


And you fail to appreciate the difference between an illustration and evidence.

_________________
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2342
cookiemonster wrote:
Hang on a minute tapeworm. You said: ""The contradictions within your anecdote are staggering."

So call them out!

I'm happy to talk this through and I'll answer your questions (I reckon its a interesting little case study :) ), but before I'd like to lay this one to rest. What were the contradictions that were so staggering?

jon


Done through the questions I asked.

Quote:
I saw gains in 1 minute and 5s power over 2 months when I just doing level 2/LSD rides coupled with core stability work (from 570 to 640w at 72kg). This was absolutely and totally against my expectations - I did my power test expecting much poorer numbers at the end of that period and was gobsmacked when I hit a new pb. My hindsight rationalisation is that my poor core stability (and it was poor!) caused me to tense my abs to hold myself steady - which in turn meant that I had difficulty breathing. The core work meant that I was more relaxed on the bike at high efforts and therefore could put out more power.


So you were more stable because you were relaxed, and this was attributable to the core strength. So you were more stable by being relaxed, or because you weakened your abs or what?.. Hmmm
Your 5s power improved because you could breathe easier. How much do you need to breathe on a 5 sec effort....Hmmm
You saw improvement from doing training on the bike. Shh don't tell everyone otherwise they may do it too. Hmmm.



Just checking, everyone does realise that their "core" is working every second they aren't horizontal sleeping right? Just want to make sure we are all across that.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 1365
Tapeworm wrote:
artray wrote:
Having upper body strength definitely helps whilst climbing.


"How?" When you climb, especially out of your seat, you are using most, if not all, of your muscle groups. Having a strong upper body, in my case, and a few other riders i ride with agree, it definitely eases the fatigue from your legs. Again I'm not talking about body builder size muscles, just enough that may or may not help. You can show all the data you like, but in some cases it can make a difference. in some it may not. fact.

Quote:
I'm not talking about having bodybuilder size muscles, but an increase of strength will help you take some of the pain from your legs.




Quote:
Unless you try, you will never know. I used to do bodybuilding [ a long time ago] and now find the upper body strength I have really helps and lets me climb very steep gradients i.e. 20/25% very comfortably .


"Strange, I found having a 300watt FTP me going uphill. I wonder how those skinny skinny pros make it uphill without good bicep strength." Actually some of those pros do have good bicep strength and not all of them have a pigeon chest and arms like the shit out of a goldfish's arse

Quote:
Exactly the point I've made i.e. position. If you find the time there are a couple of items on the net where Andy has said that he was doing a lot of work in the gym to help is TT position including core work and weights for leg strength


"Got a detailed run down of exactly what they did in the gym? Or just some photos and one paragraph in an article? Till then it's guess work at best." No, I lied just to prove you wrong. I bet you believe that.

Quote:
It's just a point to show how important core work is even to a racing driver who sits in a car so don't dismiss it so easily.


"And once again F1 drivers exerpirence very high G forces. So they train for those accordingly. Shall we start looking at astronauts too?"
The reason I mentioned F1 was that a chap I ride with found his neck would hurt after 2/3 hours of riding. I suggested he should look at what F1 drivers do to make their necks stronger. He did and it worked. Fact


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2342
Cool story.

So a rider has a sore neck and the first thing you suggest is to strengthen the neck?

It wouldn't be an issue of positioning, bike fit or fitness level would it?

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 1365
devinci wrote:
"Unless you have 25-35hours a week dedicated to training, I will say your ime would be better spent riding and recovering. I dont know anything about you and I dont care. Also, core strength has really nothing to do with going fast on a tt bike. Power, good position, pacing has to do with going fast on a tt bike.

Of course I speak for those who actually care about the time they invest in their training and the results they get from it. Though not many people get the real meaning of racing VS cycling for fun and hammering in the saturday morning group ride.

Purely anecdotal, but I havent done core work since 3 years, and it doesnt harm my cycling performance."

"All these people i speak for.The ones who care etc etc. The one's who agree with me blah blah blah" .First you were telling me how much time i have and now your speaking for all the people who care etc etc. Well I care about my riding. I care about my training. I care about the improvements i make. I am not out to prove who's right or wrong, but that there are many ways for many people and unless you try new things you will just stagnate .


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 1365
Tapeworm wrote:
Cool story.

"So a rider has a sore neck and the first thing you suggest is to strengthen the neck?

It wouldn't be an issue of positioning, bike fit or fitness level would it?
"

It's a friend I ride with who has just bought a custom Viner bike from Italy and they did a bike fit for him.
It must be hard for you to accept without the data . :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:00 pm
Posts: 73
Tapeworm wrote:
Done through the questions I asked.


No, not done - you asked a bunch of questions asking for further details and data, you did not highlight a contradiction.

I went into this conversation in good faith, as I think its a fascinating topic, but I'm feeling something of an unpleasant undercurrent, more like attempts at bullying than learning and enquiry.

I'll give this a final shot though and see where we get to



Tapeworm wrote:
1) How did you ascertain your core was unstable? Did you notice your spine flopping over when you walk? Could you walk up stairs? Where you leaning to one side, forwards, backwards? Hips rocking? Was it an assessment by a physio? Video movement analysis? Muscle biopsies?

2) So you were using your abs to hold you steady.... Once again, how did you ascertain this? And when in a forward facing position (like on a bike) the "abz" are there to cause flexion (bend forward) in the the spine. I would hazard a guess that it wasn't your abs.

3) What "core" work did you actually do?

4) After doing "core work" your muscles were more relaxed, so relaxing made you more stable? Or was it the "core strength". And once again, how was this ascertained?


1) Assessment by two physio's, followed by self assessment (check out the elphinston book again - it has a step by step assessment program for practitioners which is possible to do yourself). A couple of huge pointers were an inability to stand on one leg for more than a few seconds without wobbling and touching down - stability and balance were very poor, and almost no ability to activate my glutes, especially on the right side when attempting exercises like the clam. The other thing that's more anecdotal was that I was always a bit crap out the saddle - my preference was to sit and spin, even at higher power, say 500w or so, and I tended to get piriformas tightness quite easliy. On the other hand my abs were strong (ex-swimmer) and for the record my ftp was 4.4 w/kg. - im no pro, but neither am I a beginner.

2) Seeing a picture of myself during a race when on the power made me evaluate my technique - I just looked hugley tense (note I've had a couple of bike fits from well respected fitters so my "static'ish" position was and is fine). It was easy to ascertain - just becoming aware of myself and what I was doing - positioning, tenseness, force, etc. Basically when I was on the power hard, in order to get the stability to really go at it I would pull hard back on the drops or hoods and tense up the front of my upper body to form a rigid platform. Your abs dont *just* cause flexion, they can clearly be held rigid without your body bending! But my lats stuck out like a couple of fins down my back too and my shoulders and chest were very very tight :) I'm a spinner rather than a masher too, god knows what I would have been like if I was Jan Ulrich's crap younger brother.

3) See the Elphinston book. Mainly work around activating the glutes - but the key is that it was not "strengthening", I didnt need strong muscles for a short period, but stability and activation - I need low level stability for long periods. Exercises include the greyhound, bridges, hip pops and swivels, foot raises on the swiss ball (sit on the ball, raise one foot while keeping your body static - how hard can it be...?), supported squats and balance work. Nothing that gives a feeling of muscle fatigue as like lifting weights.

4) Not entirely sure as to what you're asking here. But the result is that I have a great deal more stability around the glutes and core - to the extent I can feel a difference walking up stairs which is a bit odd (core & glutes supporting my body rather than quads firing me up the steps) as well as on the bike. My girlfriend reckons that I stand and walk differently that previously (and in a good way!). My *theory*, is that the previous lack of stability was being compensated by rigid abdomen, chest and back muscles, but this makes breathing very difficult (you can test this at your desk - tense your upper body and see how deep you can breathe). By increasing my stability through the core I'm much less dependant on tensing my upper body (though I fall back into the habit quickly enough sadly); this lets me breath freely and fully through a 1 minute effort and hence results in a higher power average.

A bit more background - my pb for 1 min was 526w (at 72kg) achieved in a race. A month later was basically off the bike for 3 months due to various reasons. When I started back I managed a depressing 490w as my marker. I embarked on a zone 2 / LSD program as I a) had the time, b) wanted to ease back safely and c) had never really done base/endurance properly - I'm all intervals, threshold work, etc, etc (you guys really should love me). Three months in (I think I said two somewhere cant see where though - but it was 3 months of LSD) I did a power test as the marker to move to sweet spot efforts in prep for the winter race series, and to my surprise I knocked out 640w as a pb and found that I could do 500w repeatable intervals.

I have a harder time believing that zone 2 work increased my 1 min power than vastly improved breathing through enhanced stability. The other point worth noting is that my 1 min power wasnt crap (at least for me) to begin - 526w put me in the middle of cat 2 in the Coggan chart. I very much doubt any coach would have had me doing core stability and zone 2 work if I'd gone asking for a 110w increase in my 1 minute power :)

So - like I said, I would never ever infer a general rule from this little vignette, but in the complex world of training someone exists that due to their peculiar circumstances at the time saw a lumpy measurable increase in 1 minute power while doing core stability and zone 2 work. I can report less stress and tenseness during short intervals. The moral of the story is that we're dealing with humans whom are complex and a little bit odd. Your hardline position that mandates that general rules are applicable to all at all times and there can be no variances from the norm (and therefore anyone that reports an different experience is either ignorant, deluded or a liar) is, as well as personally not being very pleasant, not a true reflection of reality

jon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:43 pm
Posts: 2910
Location: Canada
artray wrote:
devinci wrote:
"Unless you have 25-35hours a week dedicated to training, I will say your ime would be better spent riding and recovering. I dont know anything about you and I dont care. Also, core strength has really nothing to do with going fast on a tt bike. Power, good position, pacing has to do with going fast on a tt bike.

Of course I speak for those who actually care about the time they invest in their training and the results they get from it. Though not many people get the real meaning of racing VS cycling for fun and hammering in the saturday morning group ride.

Purely anecdotal, but I havent done core work since 3 years, and it doesnt harm my cycling performance."

"All these people i speak for.The ones who care etc etc. The one's who agree with me blah blah blah" .First you were telling me how much time i have and now your speaking for all the people who care etc etc. Well I care about my riding. I care about my training. I care about the improvements i make. I am not out to prove who's right or wrong, but that there are many ways for many people and unless you try new things you will just stagnate .


I honnestly dont care about what you do. Just dont come and say core strength is good because A. Schleck does it, its just plain dumb.

Go buy some magazines, they are filled with those kind of myths, but please stop poluting the training section of this forum and use the search function.

Also wattage group is super useful.

Someone should lock this endless borIng topic


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:43 pm
Posts: 2910
Location: Canada
I just want to add:

seriously, use to search the forum, it has a wealth of information on training, some very good posts by Fergie, TW and john979. How many time have I seached the database and spent my morning routine drinking a coffee and reading those good posts? A lot!

It just becomes very boring, every single winter, the weight and core debate starts again and it always comes down to the same old arguments.

Soon you'll see the powercrank and low cadence work come up in the training section.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2342
@cookiemonster, Ok some questions if you could clarify, I am a little confused.

1) you went to two physios but still a self-assessment? What did the physios say and how did this compare/differ from each and the self-assessment?

2) yes the abs can work to stabilise the trunk but only if there are other muscles with an equivalent force working against them otherwise you get flexion.

3) Zone 2 most definitely can help 1 min power. Kilo riders have to do a little more than just standing starts and short efforts to go sub 1:05. There is a significant aerobic component.


You should read more carefully what I state. And what I dogmatic about and for what reason.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1514
CoachFergie wrote:
But then we don't ride to exhaustion we pace ourselves over the duration we ride and set the power accordingly.


Well, I don't know how it influences the overall debate, but I pretty regularly ride to exhaustion.

And by exhaustion, I mean complete collapse and having a hard time keeping from falling over. :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:27 am 


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Weights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1514
Tapeworm wrote:
claus wrote:
> How to you measure a "more efficient Pedal stroke"?

You measure the power input (how much power do your muscle generate) and the power output (how much power actually contributes to forward motion). That was easy.


And I doubt many would have the equipment to accurately measure this.

Maybe if we had pedal based power meters we could measure the "negative power" and/or counterproductive forces being transferred to the pedals ?

:thumbup:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 135 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. 105 5800 with weights

in Road

GT8

8

1207

Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:15 pm

dunbar42 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Colnago C60 weights

in Road

ianSWBB

9

1653

Fri May 09, 2014 11:59 pm

uraqt View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Metric weights please

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Introduce Yourself / Gallery - Please use metric weights.

Frankie - B

18

3310

Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:30 am

andymi View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Campy chainring weights? (or how much does a PM add?)

in Road

makoti

8

343

Fri May 09, 2014 4:02 pm

makoti View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. List of spoke weights

in Road

madcow

5

403

Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:46 pm

Mackers View the latest post


It is currently Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:08 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB