HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:48 pm
Posts: 755
Location: Denmark
Winter's coming nearer here, although no snow is to be found....yet. Different from previous years I now have a PM, so hopefully this will elevate the nature of my sessions.

As of now my training plan is like this:
Monday: Weight training
Tuesday: 1,5-2 hours ride on bike
Wednesday: Weight training
Thursday: 1,5-2 hours ride on bike
Friday: Weight training
Saturday: Off
Sunday: 2-3 hours ride on bike

As it gets pretty dark around 5 pm, I'm limited to roads that have good lights when I'm out on the bike. Unfortunately these roads are not flat, and therefore not really ideal for FTP training. A lot of rolling hills, and 4-5 minute "hills". Should I do VO2 max excersises instead of FTP, and do the FTP when the snow comes and I'm on the turbo trainer?

My limiters are definately being able to TT/keep a high tempo over time. I'm pretty good at sprinting and attacking on uphills.

So would VO2 max intervals be good this time of year? 3x 3 minutes?

_________________
-----------------------------
I like Spanish bikes and cars. Riding an Orbea Orca and a Seat Ibiza.


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:53 pm 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 87
I would focus on FTP and tempo. Milk tempo until Jan 1st then start doing more threashold work. About 3 weeks before your first race start doing vo2 max stuff.

Try to get in at least 3 rides a week with 2/3x20 at around 90% ftp. You can knock out a 2x20 on the trainer in just over a hour with a good warmup and cool down.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2337
That's a lot of weight training, what is its purpose?

You don't need to be at FTP to train FTP. You can do over/under intervals, 5mins a fraction over FTP, 1 min rest, repeat. Etc etc.

Lots of ways to skin the FTP cat.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:21 am
Posts: 264
I tend to do a lot of endurance, LSD rides and weight training until mid December.

From December - last week of February I focus on tempo/Threshold with 1 zone 2 ride a week

Last week of Feb until first week of April it's all Vo2 max, anaerobic type activities with 2-3 zone 2 rides a week.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:48 pm
Posts: 755
Location: Denmark
Tapeworm wrote:
That's a lot of weight training, what is its purpose?

You don't need to be at FTP to train FTP. You can do over/under intervals, 5mins a fraction over FTP, 1 min rest, repeat. Etc etc.

Lots of ways to skin the FTP cat.

The purpose of the weight training right now is to build some leg strength for later. Right now I'm in a routine where I'm doing 5x5 squats that will get me up around 100 kgs when I'm done. After that I will only be doing weighttraining 2 times a week. But besides the overall strength, I'm also a sucker so there's some bicep and pec excersises just for show :D

A fraction over FTP? Like 110% or so?

_________________
-----------------------------
I like Spanish bikes and cars. Riding an Orbea Orca and a Seat Ibiza.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:49 am
Posts: 1902
There are non-flat roads in Denmark? :p

If it is not too far away see about getting some kms on the indoor track one or twice a week

_________________
Success is how far you you bounce back up after being knocked down


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2337
Nothing wrong working the body cosmetics but keep in mind a few things. 1) You will be heavier, 2) it will effect your ability to recover and hence your ability to train aerobically 3) there is no real transference to aerobic performance.

You can train both concurrently but both will be compromised to the effectiveness yielded. And you'll need to eat a lot to keep yourself from an overtrained state. Depending on the intensity of the efforts with the weights stress to the CNS would be a strong consideration.

Also why 5x5? If you haven't been on the weights for a while then this is a lot of volume. Try more along the lines of 3 sets of 5 reps and just follow a linear progression (start with an empty or near empty bar and add weight each session). Make sure you squat right and also and add deadlifts if you weren't doing them already. And FWIW I never, ever do "biceps" or "triceps".


As for the efforts, a "tad over FTP" would be along the lines of 101-105%. You can go to 110% but it will be shorter duration (~3mins). As cyco mentioned velodrome work is very good for ultra intense efforts.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:48 pm
Posts: 755
Location: Denmark
Tapeworm wrote:
Nothing wrong working the body cosmetics but keep in mind a few things. 1) You will be heavier, 2) it will effect your ability to recover and hence your ability to train aerobically 3) there is no real transference to aerobic performance.

You can train both concurrently but both will be compromised to the effectiveness yielded. And you'll need to eat a lot to keep yourself from an overtrained state. Depending on the intensity of the efforts with the weights stress to the CNS would be a strong consideration.

Also why 5x5? If you haven't been on the weights for a while then this is a lot of volume. Try more along the lines of 3 sets of 5 reps and just follow a linear progression (start with an empty or near empty bar and add weight each session). Make sure you squat right and also and add deadlifts if you weren't doing them already. And FWIW I never, ever do "biceps" or "triceps".


As for the efforts, a "tad over FTP" would be along the lines of 101-105%. You can go to 110% but it will be shorter duration (~3mins). As cyco mentioned velodrome work is very good for ultra intense efforts.

Thanks a million. Funny you should say the thing about recovery as I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday when I was out riding. I'll probably switch to something like this next week:
Monday: Weight training
Tuesday: Bike ride 1,5-2 hours at a tad over FTP
Wednesday: Bike ride - maybe a short ride with low intensity/Day off/Swimming
Thursday: Bike ride 1,5-2 hours at a tad over FTP
Friday: Weight training
Saturday: Day off
Sunday: Bike ride 2-3 hours

Knowing how my winter usually is, there will be a lot of changes and missed sessions, so it's just for reference.

Weight training - I know I will gain weight, and I'll probably change my routine so it will include less exercises and focusing on musclegroups that are relevant for cycling, and then from time to time just do a simple pushup or pull up to make sure I still look good in the mirror. I'm thinking of a routine similar to this:
Warmup - 10 minutes xtrainer, row machine or stationary bike
Planks
Squat - probably 4x4
Hyperextensions
Face pulls/Stability row
Cool down - same as warmup

_________________
-----------------------------
I like Spanish bikes and cars. Riding an Orbea Orca and a Seat Ibiza.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:48 pm
Posts: 755
Location: Denmark
Cyco wrote:
There are non-flat roads in Denmark? :p

If it is not too far away see about getting some kms on the indoor track one or twice a week

I was surprised to learn that myself :D There's only one velodrome around here, and it's constantly booked :(

_________________
-----------------------------
I like Spanish bikes and cars. Riding an Orbea Orca and a Seat Ibiza.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2337
For the weights I would aim do something more along the line of 3 set by 5 reps:-

Day 1
Squat
Bench
Chins

Day 2
Squat/Front squat (3x3)
Over head Press
Deadlift (1x5)

That will take care of pretty much all major muscle groups. It would also take care of your "core".

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 1392
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Tapeworm wrote:
Nothing wrong working the body cosmetics but keep in mind a few things. 1) You will be heavier, 2) it will effect your ability to recover and hence your ability to train aerobically 3) there is no real transference to aerobic performance.


What about weights to maintain lean body mass for the aging athlete? Lifting weights isn't necessarily about improving aerobic performance, but can have other benefits...

Now in my early 40's, I am looking at including some general free weight exercises into my weekly routine. I have gone from being a professional rock climber in my youth (all upper body, no legs) to desk jockey / masters cyclist with legs and no upper. Although upper body work has limited value for cycling, it surely must be beneficial as we get older…

_________________
http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2337
General activity of any nature will ensure lean body mass is maintained, it is not limited to weight training. So by doing anything will ensure that even into the twilight years a person does not waste away. Bone density is very responsive to impact - i.e.: walking/running. Studies into ageing, wasting of muscle, and such usually look a very sedentary people.

There are unique benefits to weight training, not least of which is that it makes you stronger (of course). I personally think everyone should lift, transference to performance be dammed, just being stronger would help a person as a human being . That being said whilst there are some studies which suggest some vague transference, by and large devoting 100% of training time to cycling will yield the best results for cycling. Especially for the amateur.

So lift if you want to but..... JDEITHYC! (Just don't expect it to help your cycling!)

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:45 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Ireland
Hi. First post here.

I'm experimenting with lifting this winter for the first time. I am hoping (but not quite expecting) it to help on the bike though I might be different to the OP - I time-trial fairly well and can maintain a steady output well but would like to be better at sprinting and jumping away / responding to attacks.

If the OP is already good in this area but not so hot at steady state power then I'm not sure how weights are supposed to help; force isn't the issue, muscular endurance is (in Freil-speak). I'm trying to drop a few kg too and I'm finding that lifting is helping me do that without losing muscle. You can lift all the weights you want but as long as yo don't give your body the calories you won't bulk up. I'm doing 3x15 of squats and deadlifts along with a good amount of core work. Other than that it's all tempo and sub-tempo work on the bike. FTP stuff comes later for me and I'll probably end up doing that on the turbo when the winter bites so now is the time to do longer sessions.

Incidentally, I actually asked Joe Freil about how to build weights into the weekly routine - his advice was to give 48 hours of recovery after a serious (key) strength session so alternating days on and off the bike, as the OP is doing, might not be a great idea.

As for inspiration, I've a HD full of the TDF and stuff that will hopefully get me through the turbo season.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2337
Just nit-picking here:- squats and Deadlifts ARE core work. And 15-20 reps still induce a great amount of hypertropy. There is a specific 20rep squat program which is highly effective for "pumping up" the muscle. If strength and only strength is goal then usually very low range reps 1-5 is good along with calorie restrictions - but this will hamper gains somewhere. If you want "muscular endurance"'it's more along the lines of 50+. At which point you'd be better off on the bike.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:45 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Ireland
Great. Nitpicking.

Squats and deadlifts do use the core, sure. They use everything. By core work I mean stuff that targets the core specifically - crunches of various sort, twists and balance ball stuff that targets the back and obliques. As I thought I implied, I'm _not_ training for muscular endurance in the gym, I'm training for strength. My muscular endurance is not my limiter but it sounds like it is for the OP. That's why I was questioning his focus on weights work. If he wants the muscular endurance to TT well then the bike is the tool.

As for hypertrophy, well that simply is not possible unless you supply the calories. Muscle mass does not come out of this air. At the moment I'm doing 3x15 but that will come down to maybe 3 to 5 reps as the load goes up, but that won't be for a few weeks yet. Six weeks ago, when I started this I was doing 5x30 with very little weight. Going straight into high-weight/low-rep work outs is a great way to spend the winter at the physio from what I've seen.


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:56 pm 


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. headset advice

in Road

KOGAN

1

367

Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:44 am

bricky21 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. New headset advice, please

in Road

DMF

7

546

Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:31 pm

DMF View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Build Advice

in MTB

robb

7

411

Thu May 15, 2014 10:55 pm

robb View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Assos confusion/advice!?

in Cycle Chat

KOGAN

8

1216

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:37 pm

RM27 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Size-advice Canyon CF SLX

in Road

bruno2000

4

579

Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:51 am

bruno2000 View the latest post


It is currently Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:34 am

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB