Training to race after 44 years away...

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

As the thread title suggests, I am a 67 year old rider who didn't train for 41 years, and have been cycling now for three years, mostly for endurance rather than speed (16,000-20,000km/year; 200,000-300,000m of climbing/year). What I notice on group rides is that I can handle steady fast rides (~40km/h), but blow up when there are repeated surges (hilly rides when the young guys push it on every hill).

What is the best way to train to improve my ability to muster repeated short hard efforts? FTP is 200W.

Thanks in advance,
Hugh
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AJS914
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by AJS914

I'd be curious to what the answer is and I'm not sure there is one.

I'm in a similar boat at 55. I'm typically riding with a younger crowd (decades younger) and my 250 watt FTP and extra 15 pounds that I can't loose just can't compete with younger guys that are slimmer and have 300+ watt FTPs. I can hang just fine on the flats but when it goes up and down and up and down, I'll lose the group after a while. Every up hill roller is done at 300-400 watts.

Short of unlocking the secrets to a 20% gain in FTP and starving myself to lose those pounds, I doubt I'm going to catch the younger guys.

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c60rider
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by c60rider

fruitfly wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:17 pm
As the thread title suggests, I am a 67 year old rider who didn't train for 41 years, and have been cycling now for three years, mostly for endurance rather than speed (16,000-20,000km/year; 200,000-300,000m of climbing/year). What I notice on group rides is that I can handle steady fast rides (~40km/h), but blow up when there are repeated surges (hilly rides when the young guys push it on every hill).

What is the best way to train to improve my ability to muster repeated short hard efforts? FTP is 200W.

Thanks in advance,
Hugh
You've kind of answered your own question here. The way to train to improve you ability to do repeated short hard efforts is to do just that. Interval training. The hard efforts are likely to be well up into your zone 5 but here's Frank Overton's take on that kind of training which might give you a good starting point https://fascatcoaching.com/blogs/traini ... -intervals

AJS914
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by AJS914

fruitfly wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:17 pm
mostly for endurance rather than speed
I was thinking about this topic again. I dug myself into the endurance hole after covid started in early 2020. All I did was easy rides all spring and then when a few group rides started again in June, I got blown out the back because I hadn't done any intensity.

Hugh, I'd think about:

-weight lifting (Old guys lose muscle mass. Try and keep it with heavy lifting.)

-getting a coach or a canned training plan and then just follow it. Adjust it to keep fatigue in check. Old guys need more rest than young guys.

-be the best version of yourself you can be. you may never catch the 20 somethings.

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ms6073
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by ms6073

fruitfly wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:17 pm
What I notice on group rides is that I can handle steady fast rides (~40km/h), but blow up when there are repeated surges (hilly rides when the young guys push it on every hill).
So seems the title of your post is a tad misleading you simply want to improve fitness so you can enjoy the weekday/weekend worlds and not intending to get a racing license from your national federation so you can lineup alongside a bunch of newbs! Probably not going to go over well with this crowd, but why not get together a ride group comprised of riders that you enjoy riding with and not the often times sketchy group of wanna-be racers? While long road rides with a large, diverse group of cyclists will definitely help you improve on riding in the paceline, unless you are one of the ones at the front doing the work, it will really only serve to make you really, really tired.
AJS914 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:37 am
-weight lifting (Old guys lose muscle mass. Try and keep it with heavy lifting.)
Remind us how exactly bulking up/increasing muscle mass/density with that kind of exercise is going to help the OP keep up with the younger folks when they make hard jumps on climbs over rolling terrain? I would suggest the OP consider investing in a good quality smart trainer and start doing a set of structured workouts aimed at improving V02 max efforts. Anybody can be fast for 10-15 minutes, endurance and strength get you only so far, but knowing when to work and when to sit in keep you in the group for the whole ride.
- Michael
"People should stop expecting normal from me... seriously, we all know it's never going to happen"

fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Thanks to those who replied. Come comments, some rueful....

AJS914: Thanks for the comments. For the first three years my fitness was so far below my potential that anything I did improved my fitness. However, age-related declines in muscle mass, stroke volume, max heart rate mean that I will soon be in the irreversible decline phase, and I will just have to get used to that idea, even if I fight it all the way. Certainly true about older folks needing more recovery time-one reason why most canned plans are inappropriate. A good coach should be able to figure this out. Right now I use heart rate variation/motivation to tell me when I need to go easy. As an aside, one of the reasons I am going back to racing is that my province has a 55+ Games where I can race against guys who are 65-69, who at least have comparable physiology, and I can tell from Strave that I am "good for my age", even if not good in an absolute sense. In the main racing season, Masters racers are lumped with the younger guys, so the competition is (for me) about 45 years younger. You are right that it is unrealistic to imagine that I can return to the days of my youth. I do weight lift because it is a much more efficient way to gain/maintain strength than cycling.

c60rider: Yup, intervals/HIIT weren't a thing when I was racing, so I am very inexperienced. Thanks for a simple concise link to use as a starting point. In real life, I have to limit intervals to once a week because of the need to be fresh before doing them, and the time to recover afterwards. I haven't been doing HIIT for the last two years because of the pandemic because HIIT is use it or lose it, and I wasn't using it. I did do HIIT in my first year back when I didn't have the interest or gear to do big volume, and wanted a short-term rapid improvement.

ms6073: I do want to return to racing-I was using an example from club rides to show how I know what problem I need to solve. In the days of my youth I was on a sponsored team (as a domestique!), and was on the provincial team selected to ride in the national championships, so I (luckily) know about pacelines, tactics, strategy, where to position oneself in a group etc. The problem with riding with the cat 4's is that step one, which is figuring out who you can trust, shows that there is no one you can trust....All the this knowledge means nothing when you are in Zone 6 when the guys you with are in Zone 2.....The good news is that I have put in the volume now, and can keep up with most groups and still be (just) at the top of Zone 2. The bad news is that I have at the most 2 all-out efforts in me for a given ride.

I do have the UCI licence required for all races. I do regular club rides, and also ride with a group of my age riders, all of whom are former members of Canadian national teams or national champions. My first two years riding with them were brutal, but did me a lot of good for dragging up my basic fitness. I did a 400km charity ride this summer at an average of 30.2 km/h, so the base is now there. Best rider in the group was a Women's World Tour Pro who was amazing to watch both for her fitness, and for her situational awareness in the group (she finished 6th in the Wrolds RR this year....).

You are absolutely right that the thing that bothered me the most when I tried a few races was being put in with sketchy Cat 4 riders-no one knew what they were doing, how to corner, no one wanted to work, no one could follow a line: scary! (I am too old to bounce any more....every fall hurts and for a long time). In the days of my youth I was on a sponsored team (as a domestique!), and was on the provincial team selected to ride in the national championships, so I know about pacelines, tactics, strategy, where to position oneself in a group etc. The problem with riding with the cat 4's is that step one. which is figuring out who you can trust, shows that there is no one you can trust....All the this knowledge means nothing when you are in Zone 6 when the guys you with are in Zone 2.....The good news is that I have put in the volume now, and can keep up with most groups and still be (just) at the top of Zone 2. The bad news is that I have at the most 2 all-out efforts in me for a given ride.

Thanks again to all for their thoughtful comments.

Hugh
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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

I went down this road and it can be done. For me there were three components but the catch is as always the motivation.

Component one: assuming your cv system is still decent, get in the habit of destroying yourself on a selection of uphill sectors on training rides. Basically interval work but it doesn't have to be crazy structured. Just have your favorite hills and kill them. Helps if you have a buddy so you can sprint it out. Component two: big gear workouts. What I did was find steep hills and ride them in the biggest gear I could seated - an no thrashing about, good form only, smooth stroke, and stable core. If you can stomach this stuff you will get strong, but it is awful. And component three: get thin. If getting dropped happens on hills, the thinner the better as far as I'm concerned. I was the worst climber, lost a lot of weight by riding all day every day for two years, and now I have graduated to at least a poor or perhaps mediocre climber. But at least I don't get dropped on hills. :P

With the faster group rides, there are a few old guys who can ride with just about anybody. It's not magic, just hard work.
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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

ms6073 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:03 pm
Remind us how exactly bulking up/increasing muscle mass/density with that kind of exercise is going to help the OP keep up with the younger folks when they make hard jumps on climbs over rolling terrain? I would suggest the OP consider investing in a good quality smart trainer and start doing a set of structured workouts aimed at improving V02 max efforts. Anybody can be fast for 10-15 minutes, endurance and strength get you only so far, but knowing when to work and when to sit in keep you in the group for the whole ride.
Given the age, I would consider strength training almost mandatory.

So benefits:-
* Improved muscle density
* Improvements to connective tissue
* Improved contractile speed
* Improved neuromuscular coordination
* Increased bone density
* Improved core strength

Negatives:-
* Slight increase to lean body mass (if you remain training as an endurance athlete you stand to gain maybe 1-2kg.)
* Can feel sore at times
* May take time away from riding

Will it boost your FTP? Probably not.

It may allow *capacity* for shorter duration efforts.

It will improve overall "robustness" of the frame that houses the engine.

fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Thanks Mr Gib and AeroObsessive.

Mr. Gib, your statement is that it starts with motivation hit home. As you can discern from my comments, racing with Cat 4 eejits is not motivating, but I do find it motivating to know there is a 55+ games in BC, and a national version as well if one can qualify in the provincials. Agree with training that is more like fartlek-going hard in different sorts of terrain, without necessarily being intervals, as being easier to manage, and doing it with others is even better. This is what riding with the experienced guys has been good for. I went from being last on every acceleration to somewhere in the middle, and am now approching the top. Where I live is lumpy, but not mountainous, but there are lots of hills suitable for doing what you suggest. As ms6073 suggests, intervals are good on the trainer though. I smiled when you mentioned losing weight. I have lost 13.6kg/30 pounds since I retired, by a combination of not "stress eating" and cycling a lot, and am now only 2kg above my racing weight in 1977. Climbing was always the thing I was best at, so I do a lot of it, when I should be doing a lot of what I am not good at!

AeroObsesssive, I completely agree that weight training for older people is essential. No one defeats Father Time, or even fights him to a draw. Perhaps folks who don't lift don't realize how much it increases your heart rate as well as increasing strength, so from a cardiovascular sense, it is a form of interval training in itself.

Hugh
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ms6073
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by ms6073

I would suggest you also consider Cyclocross racing - unlike you, up until the 2013 CX Masters Worlds, I had raced on and off for over 35-years. The first time I opted to take a stab at CX racing, I was instantly hooked as I really enjoyed the vibe as compared to the road. Unlike on the road, everyone is usually on the limit and except for rolling on hard pack or asphalt, trying to 'sit in' when racing over grass, dirt, sand, or through mud, ice, or snow, isn't going to help much.

Sure there was always a bunch of up and comers looking to join the top tier in the categorized races, but lining up for the masters races, I found most where there because like me, they thought it was a blast, not to mention there was a significantly lower chance of major injury. While CX racing did not help much with endurance for longer rides, thanks to the pretty much constant Z5/6/7 efforts one endures over the course of 50-60 minute CX race, when I did opt to line up for summer time evening crits, while I obviously wasn't going to contest for the podium, I had no issues racing in the top 10 were at the time most were 20-30 years younger.

That said, with my 60th birthday fast approaching, these days I much prefer riding with the wife, rather than the boys, but if I were to consider going back to racing, it would be cyclocross, maybe TT's, but definitely not road racing.
- Michael
"People should stop expecting normal from me... seriously, we all know it's never going to happen"

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LouisN
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by LouisN

fruitfly wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:17 pm
As the thread title suggests, I am a 67 year old rider who didn't train for 41 years, and have been cycling now for three years, mostly for endurance rather than speed (16,000-20,000km/year; 200,000-300,000m of climbing/year). What I notice on group rides is that I can handle steady fast rides (~40km/h), but blow up when there are repeated surges (hilly rides when the young guys push it on every hill).

What is the best way to train to improve my ability to muster repeated short hard efforts? FTP is 200W.

Thanks in advance,
Hugh
IMO at your masters cat. (65-75), racing is mostly about strategy, tactics and be in the "right bunch" to try to win races. You have enough in your legs to just register and race. Check your local racing scene, and look the avg.speeds from previous years. i doubd it's 40 km/h, so you shouldn't have any problems following. Then you will get a good idea what it is you need to work to be where you want to be in your cat. depending on your goals.


Louis :)

fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Thanks ms6073 for describing your experiences with CX. I never really considered it given that I suck at running, but the atmosphere and attitudes you describe sound perfect. I don't know much about the local scene, or even if there are CX races around here.

LouisN: Thanks for the encouragement. It will be interesting to see what happens when I race for sure.

Hugh
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