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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:24 pm 
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Hi there,

I've got a big question mark in regards to my endurance capability in mountain bike marathons (120KM / 2800-3200 altitude meter).
I was cycling since a long time but in races since 3-4 years. Since the end of last year I spend a lot of time for training and I also follow a personal training plan with lactate test, etc. I am sure that my endurance basement was good trained, but both most important races this year shows unfortunately the opposite and I don't know why. I train on race bike and mountain bike, something about 300 hours this year.

To debilitate this arguments:
-I don't exceed at the start
-I eat and drink enough, with no stomach problems
-I keep my HR mostly below my threshold (156 bpm).

However, after something about 4 hours and some minutes, I was no longer able to put any pressure on the pedals or with other words: from this point I need to ride with low HR (<145 bpm). After a while (round about one and a half hours) I can speed up a bit but not like before. I've experienced that in the dolomiti superbike but only to finish the race (was my first start there), far away from my calculated time.

Here some details for Trainers:
-age: 35
-weight: 71Kg
-size: 180 cm
-fat:?
-max. power: 1180 W
-ergometer step test results from 02Jul2005:
    2,0mmol lactat after 5minutes at 184W / HR 135
    2,4mmol lactat after 5minutes at 220W / HR 142
    3,5mmol lactat after 5minutes at 254W / HR 149
    4,5mmol lactat after 5minutes at 280W / HR 161
    5.0mmol lactat after 5minutes at 316W / HR 176 (stopped after this step, because it makes no sense for finding the threshold and strains the muscles unneeded)



Maybe someone can help me finding some explanation or what I can do to enhance my endurance for a COMPLETE race and not for just a bit over the half.
Thanks

At last: I don't want to be a pro (I allready have a job), but I want to race with fun and for me fun ends after 6 hours on a bike...

Taaboo

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:49 pm 
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Sounds like you are bonking. How much carbohydrate, in calories per hour are you consuming during the race?

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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:49 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:41 pm 
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Yes, it could be that you are running low on carbohydrates. What do you eat during such an event?

In a 6 hour marathon, I can sometimes burn 5000 calories. In a 3 hour marathon I will only stop once at a ravitaillement, even if there are 3 our 4 stops organized. But on the longer rides, I stop at nearly every ravito, except maybe the first one.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:41 am 
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More specifically are you strugling with your energy levels or muscle fatigue?

Sounds like you know to stay below your Lactate Threshold but that doesn't nessesitate that you're not strugling with muscle fatigue rather than bonking. It's important we know what the limiting factor is.

Next time you do the LT test, keep power regulated (increase power by 25w increments) for better results. Keep going after the threshold to get an idea of your ability to handle the lactic.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:53 am 
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John979 wrote:
Sounds like you are bonking. How much carbohydrate, in calories per hour are you consuming during the race?


Oswald wrote:
What do you eat during such an event


I am not sure exactly about the rate "cal/h" but I eat during the first round (58KM/1400altim) one complete Banana on different ravitaillements and 1,5 carbo bars (Maxim), separated in 0,5hours steps (more or less). After the first round (3h18min) I drank one whole Maxim/Extran drink (200ml with 320kcal and 40%carbohydrate) with pure water afterwards.
All my drinks contents also a bit of carbohydrats.

The plan was to eat again one maxim carbo bar and additionally 2-3 powergels in the second round.

I did not count but should be enough, or not?

Taaboo

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Think about the lightest part on your bike? Your brain! -Use it and do not buy any component, but the one which suits your riding style...


Last edited by the_taaboo on Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:11 am 
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Bruiser wrote:
More specifically are you strugling with your energy levels or muscle fatigue?
I guess more muscle fategue, since I know what bonking is and I don't felt sick or seen "stars"at the specific point, my feeling was good (so far you can say that during a race), especially when I ride with less power.

Bruiser wrote:
Sounds like you know to stay below your Lactate Threshold but that doesn't nessesitate that you're not strugling with muscle fatigue rather than bonking. It's important we know what the limiting factor is.
Yes, that's what I want to find out.

Bruiser wrote:
Next time you do the LT test, keep power regulated (increase power by 25w increments) for better results. Keep going after the threshold to get an idea of your ability to handle the lactic.
The test is power regulated, but with steps by the half body weight in Watt. This was not my first one. The one before was up to 8mmol lactate. Since this test was 1.5 weeks in advance to the dolomiti superbike I don't want to "pollute" my muscles with to much lactate.

More ore less I guess that my training was not enought power oriented, like hill climbs with low frequencies or gym training. But maybe not eaten enough?

Taaboo

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:46 am 
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I know how u feel, just eat before you get hungry, and check the Gi content of your food, i used to be a vegetarian and all the food i ate was digested quickly and i was always hungry.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:26 pm 
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curlymcbird wrote:
I know how u feel, just eat before you get hungry, and check the Gi content of your food, i used to be a vegetarian and all the food i ate was digested quickly and i was always hungry.
I am aware of the GI and I am under the impression that I take care of it. The thing is that I am not hungry. I'm not a vegi but a low meat-eater.

Taaboo

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Think about the lightest part on your bike? Your brain! -Use it and do not buy any component, but the one which suits your riding style...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:53 pm 
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the_taaboo wrote:
curlymcbird wrote:
I know how u feel, just eat before you get hungry, and check the Gi content of your food, i used to be a vegetarian and all the food i ate was digested quickly and i was always hungry.
I am aware of the GI and I am under the impression that I take care of it. The thing is that I am not hungry. I'm not a vegi but a low meat-eater.

Taaboo


Not being hungry doesn't mean that you have eaten enough...

training suppresses the appetite.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:18 am 
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How is your 300hrs/year divided up into cycles/sessions?
Taken at face value less than 6 hours a week (300/52) might not be enough for the distances of the event you are competing in (and their apparent climbing severity).

Also, your training intensities might be either too high, preventing adequate recovery between sessions, or too low so you don't get any training benefit at all. A high volume of winter base training is probably the most important phase to training for endurance, but it needs to be at the right intensity.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:25 pm 
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IanB wrote:
How is your 300hrs/year divided up into cycles/sessions?
Taken at face value less than 6 hours a week (300/52) might not be enough for the distances of the event you are competing in (and their apparent climbing severity).

Also, your training intensities might be either too high, preventing adequate recovery between sessions, or too low so you don't get any training benefit at all. A high volume of winter base training is probably the most important phase to training for endurance, but it needs to be at the right intensity.


Hi IanB,

the 300h was until I've written the thread, not over the whole year.
My riding week was filled with 8-12 hours, depending on the training schedule.
Re intensities: I think that my basement work was ok, but I doubt that I haven't done enough max power training (big gear and low frequencies at hills). AND I think I need to train hill climbs more with the MTB.

I don't think that I missed my recom phases, I guess my training was too much Road aligned.

What I want to change for next year:
    More max power training on low frequencies and low HR
    Longer runs with low HR up to 6-7hours in every macro sequence
    a little bit more training in the development zone


This year I only have only one importent event next weekend, I will tell what happend

Taaboo

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Think about the lightest part on your bike? Your brain! -Use it and do not buy any component, but the one which suits your riding style...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:46 am 
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8-12hrs/week does sound like a good level of volume to me.

Whilst I'm not vastly experienced at training myself, I've read some books and coached myself over the past 2 years or so for big endurance events. I wouldn't say that training on road for mtb events is a limiting factor - I do about 80% of my training on road, and all my events off road. However, leading up to an event, I do train more frequently on my mtb to improve my techinque and re-establish some familiarity over the bike.

When training on the road, I still kept the type of rides I do quite specific to what I'd expect for mtb events - this means pointing the bike up lots of hills. I tended not to do much speed work specifically until the last 4 weeks before an 'A' priority race, but mixed paced rides, tempo rides and cruise intervals featured quite regularly.

This is taken slightly out of context, but here's an example of what a typical week looked like for me when training for a big event earlier this year:
Monday: recovery (road) - 1hr - zone 1
Tuesday: aerobic endurance (road) - 2.5hrs - zone 2
Wednesday: tempo (road) - 2hrs - zone 3
Thursday: hills (road or mtb) or criuse intervals (road) - 2hrs - zone 2-4
Friday: off
Saturday: Group ride (mtb) - 3-4hrs - upto zone 5
Sunday: aerobic endurance, hilly (road) - 5hrs - zone 2

PM me if you want to talk about anything in more detail

Good luck with your race :wink:

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:46 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Thanks IanB,

when the time comes for the next season (Mid of November for myself), I will rewrite my schedule. Until then, running and fun biking is on my schedule.

Regards
Taaboo

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