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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:09 am 
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I'm ready to give the 2x20 a try, but since I am limited to HRM, doesn't 85% of Max put me right around the top of Z3? Is that where it's supposed to be?

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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:09 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:48 am 
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boysa wrote:
I'm ready to give the 2x20 a try, but since I am limited to HRM, doesn't 85% of Max put me right around the top of Z3? Is that where it's supposed to be?


Depends, 85% average means you will probably hit 90-92% after 10-15 minutes into the first intervals. You will learn by trying it. Aim at 85% average for the first interval, make sure you dont overcook it too early, keep cadence steady is on the trainer. The first 5 min should feel comfy, next fiv a bit less, last 5 min should be challenging, no more.

Last winter, I was on a steady regim of 2 x 20 in Zone 3 and zone 4. 2 to 3 times a week. All guided by HR, you really learn a lot about yourself by doing these with HR and perceived effort. Try it and learn!

2 x 20' can be done as a tempo workout as well as a threshold workout, always depends on the circumstances (outdoor training, trainer, time available, etc.)


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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:34 am 
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mattyb wrote:
oh and FWIW, I find 2 x 20's a couple of times a week is not enough to increase FTP.
YMMV but I personally need to go over threshold for longer intervals (15mins+) or significantly increase time at or near threshold (eg, 3 x 30mins, 2 x 45mins etc)

I've done many many weeks of 2-3 x 20' two or three times a week. I stay at 92 -95% until beginning of March and then hit 95% or maybe bit more. I don't really do much 100% FTP, I try to add another 20' to my workout instead of pushing it to the FTP for 2 x 20'. But I don't like to suffer.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:55 pm 
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devinci wrote:
Depends, 85% average means you will probably hit 90-92% after 10-15 minutes into the first intervals. You will learn by trying it. Aim at 85% average for the first interval, make sure you dont overcook it too early, keep cadence steady is on the trainer.


Thanks... guess I was missing the point about Average. Does that also mean you don't want to "ramp up" your HR before the interval starts? Get it some where in the neighborhood of the target?

Think I'll give it a go tonight... seems like the perfect indoor trainer workout. Don't have to worry about hills/cars/wind/etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:20 pm 
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You dont have to ramp up your HR before you start. Put a steady resistance on the trainer and try to keep that resistance for the 20 min, increasing your cadence a bit during the effort (trainer is warming and the resistance becomes a bit less then what you initially had). Your HR will settle where it should, try to follow the previously stated guidance in term of HR, for sure you wont succeed at the first attempt. Like I said, you need to practice those to know your body better so you can do them by HR and PE.

Just so you know, if we take 2 x 20 @ 90% FTP, it shouldnt be that hard. It means you should complete the 2nd effort fairly comfortably. Its a hard effort, but nothing insanely painfull.

Keep us posted


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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:13 am 
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Warming yourself up is important in any context. If you are using HR only then try and build to 75% over 5 mins and slowly ramp that up over the next 5 mins to 80% just before you start your first effort. This way you won't be trying too hard to get to 85% and overcook yourself at the start. Recovery should be done at E1 between sets. If you are running standard gearing - 53/39 - you will find it easier to manage your effort in the small ring. The incremental steps in gear changes are smaller and will give you a little more room for error whilst you are trying to figure out your own 'best' method.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:40 am 
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Well, I gave it a go today. I think this workout would be perfect for the indoor trainer, but it was so nice outside, there was no way I was going to be indoors. This brought the wind and some small rollers into play, but I think it went ok. The first one had me laughing because no matter how much I read, it's hard not to overcook the first couple of minutes. Especially when using a HRM.

Question:
1. Is FTP the same as OBLA, or LT(2)? I've had lactate testing done before when I was working with a coach, so I know roughly where these numbers are. I ask because Max HR is such an arbitrary number, would it be better if I did this workout in the recommended 91%-105% of FTP (substituting my LT2 for FTP)?

Otherwise, it went well. This is similar to workouts I've done in the past, although this was a touch higher HR over a shorter duration. Before it was longer duration, slightly lower HR.

Thanks for some great info!

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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:08 pm 
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nope, ftp is not the same as OBLA, just keep doing them by HR and PE, you will learn a lot about yourself and you will become very good at doing these within your capacity.


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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:15 am 
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OJ wrote:
mattyb wrote:
oh and FWIW, I find 2 x 20's a couple of times a week is not enough to increase FTP.
YMMV but I personally need to go over threshold for longer intervals (15mins+) or significantly increase time at or near threshold (eg, 3 x 30mins, 2 x 45mins etc)

I've done many many weeks of 2-3 x 20' two or three times a week. I stay at 92 -95% until beginning of March and then hit 95% or maybe bit more. I don't really do much 100% FTP, I try to add another 20' to my workout instead of pushing it to the FTP for 2 x 20'. But I don't like to suffer.

I know others that perfer your method and get results. Everyone is different. I find I stagnate if I don't push the watts higher but others find they get the same benefits staying under 100% :)


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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:39 pm 
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Did my first 2x20 without power in nearly a year tonight.
It was very interesting to try figure out how I was travelling monitoring HR, Cadence & Speed compared to just watching the 3sec Average Power.
I suspect because I have a pretty good handle on what I'm putting out at different cadence/speed on the KK trainer that it was reasonably close to where it should have been.
But it was still strange not having power to guide me. I still hurt afterwards so that must mean I did something right :D

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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:38 pm 
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KH1,

Just had an idea :idea: ...

Maybe you can use that experience to produce a potential best seller book:

"Train WITHOUT Power " !!! :lol: Using HR, cadence, RPE, and still be efficient...


Louis :)


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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:56 am 
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Ha! And my follow up book will be Power - The wimps way out of real training :lol:

On a serious note - it's amazing how much I've come to rely on power. All my training peaks TSS numbers are shot to pieces without my PM.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:03 am 
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A few "blind" sessions where you cover up the feedback of the powermeter can be useful to aligning your FTP with Rate of Preceived effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Unfortunately we had a bit of snow Monday night, so I was back on the trainer yesterday. Did a 2x20 workout, and to my surprise, it seemed a bit harder doing it inside. Guess some of it had to do with just simply being stuck indoors. Also, I was a lot more focused... no distractions.

For those of you who do these workouts, what do you follow it up with? I'm thinking about tonight and what would be appropriate. Also, how often/how much rest do I need between 2x20? What frequency would provide a nice improvement? This is early in the year for me, so I want to work towards some late spring races.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:33 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Training Routines
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:17 pm 
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You can do 2 x 20 day in day out without problem. 3 times a week is no problem either. It would indeed be benefical to your FTP. You can also throw in some longer tempo session.

The fact its harder indoor is partly caused by the iso power aspect of the workout. You power remains a lot steadier then outside. Doing it outdoors, the power fluctuate a lot more, providing some very small partial rest periods.


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