I've created 2 new routines in an effort to improve my climbing capacity.
Both are trainer based routines - neither will replace real climbing - but both (I feel) do a pretty good job at supplementing a good climbing program.

Climbers 2 x 20
10 min warm up build towards E3
5min @ 95% FTP @ ~95RPM then change up 1 gear
5min @ 100% FTP @ ~90RPM then change up 1 gear
5min @ 105% FTP @ ~85RPM then change up 1 gear
5min @ 110%% FTP @ ~80RPM
5min Recovery then repeat
5-10min warm down

Climbers 45min long climb effort
10 min warm up build towards E3
5min @ 85% FTP @ ~100RPM then change up 1 gear
5min @ 95% FTP @ ~95RPM then change up 1 gear
5min @ 100% FTP @ ~90RPM then change up 1 gear
8min @ 105% FTP @ ~85RPM then change up 1 gear
7min @ 110% FTP @ ~80RPM then change up 1 gear
5min @ 115% FTP @ ~70-75RPM then change up 1 gear
5min @ 115% FTP @ ~65-70RPM then change down 1 gear
1min @ 115% FTP @ ~70-75RPM then change down 1 gear
1min @ 110% FTP @ ~80RPM then change down 1 gear
1min @ 105% FTP @ ~85RPM then change down 1 gear
1min @ 100% FTP @ ~90RPM then change down 1 gear
1min @ 95% FTP @ ~95RPM then change down 1 gear
5-10 min warm down

I promise you - you will feel like you have climbed one big bastard of a hill after this effort. The staged 1 min step downs aid in flushing a bit of lactate before the proper warm down. You can substitute these for another 5min interval but I found that my recovery for the following day seemed to better with those 1 min steps tacked onto the end.

Edited due to lack of knowledge - Thanks TW

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Argon
CAAD9 6.78Kg
Supersix 6.78Kg

Probably only lactate at that stage, acidosis is unlikely to have occurred (if had you would have stopped already)

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Has anyone ever just tried upping their weekly mileage or hours on the bike?

I read a lot about training at specific intensities for specific durations which has their place in a routine. but most people will benefit greatly by just riding more miles. say....if you average 200 miles a week: by bumping to 400 will develop a much stronger aerobic base and likely higher threshold power.

Ah the dream of being able to double the amount of time I spend on a bike.......
400 miles (640Km) is some pretty serious riding on a weekly basis. Even 320Km is pretty good going.
The main reason for this thread though is to give time constrained cyclists like me and probably 99% of the WW board members some ideas on how to maximise their efforts in the time they have available.

And you

Stop swearing!

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Argon
CAAD9 6.78Kg
Supersix 6.78Kg

one of the reason for higher intensity workout is the lack of available time. Sure riding huge training volumes will grow a bigger and stronger aerobic engine.

But in the end, you cant escape the pain tunel, in order to ride hard/fast, you need to train hard/fast.

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Sorry to nitpick here but, can you/anyone explain how high training volumes grow a bigger/stronger aerobic engine?

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K2

Do you suffer more when you train, or cannot train?

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83160&p=727610#p727610" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

KK, I could detail what sort adaptations happen at what sort of levels... Or I could just link this:- http://www.trainingpeaks.com/hunter/pow ... levels.pdf

Couple of pages down is a nice chart listing the various adaptations you can expect at various zones.

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
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Yeah, I've seen that before, which is really why I asked. Looking at that chart, the only advantage the lower intensities have over higher intensities is to increase muscle glycogen storage, which obviously has it's advantages but, putting around for 25 hours a week in Zone 2 isn't going to give you an FTP of ~400W. IMHO, FTP is the biggest factor in road racing and the one that most people need to work on, that is, until they've come close to their genetic potential.

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K2

Do you suffer more when you train, or cannot train?

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83160&p=727610#p727610" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Correct but the one simple aspect that the chart doesn't log is that of fatigue of all kinds, that it is easier (for most) to do a nice 3 hr zone 1 ride than smash out threshold efforts day in and day out. For specialists doing something like the hour record do focus on a lot of threshold or suprathreshold work.

The other aspect is one of efficiency which is very hard to quantify without a far amount of repeated testing in labs etc but by and large can be trained through volume.

Pros do massive volume of course because their racing demands it. So if your races are 4 hrs long with two ~20min climbs and a sprint finish... well, guess what training should include?

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
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L6 according to the chart seems to be of great value but it doesn't seem to get a lot of discussion.
Why is that?

because ''its an aerobic sport damn it!'' ?

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I honestly think its because a lot of the people that post on power-specific forums seem to have a very vague LT focus or do a lot of TTs. If you actually see programs from Hunter and some of the other coaches they actually have athletes do a hell of a lot more than 2x20s 2-3 times a week. There is a lot of specifically targeted L6 workouts in these plans and a lot of L5 work as well. It doesn't mean that an athlete shouldn't try and raise their LT, but there are lots of successful domestic pros that don't do a lick of dedicated LT work, don't have stupid high LTs, and still win big races. If you were racing Speedweek would you really do 2x20s for your training and 10x1 a few weeks out like the program templates suggest? Probably not.

L6 is a highly variable level with an absurd amount of workout combinations. Someone with weak L6 power or a kilo rider might focus on doing 1m at max effort with 10 minutes rest for maybe 5 to 6 reps whereas a road or cross rider might do 30 on/30 off for 10 minutes at a time. I think LT work is a lot easier to specify and give general recs for. Its easier for an athlete to add it to their program and get the general gist of it than L6 work, which can easily burn someone out of its not done correctly.

So, in the end I think its just easier to recommend something that can benefit almost everyone, thats easy to figure out, and that has been proven as well. I've done 4 hour road races with bigger climbs and L4 is usually the zone that I spend the least amount of time in so for me L5 training and L3 training are key.

I will point out that by having a high LT is good for L6 efforts in the sense that your relative level of effort is higher ie: someone with a FTP of 200 will find 400 watt efforts hard where as someone with a 400 watt FTP would find 600 watt efforts hard.

This is for aerobic based applications.

A track sprinter could most likely manage very high L6 efforts but have a very poor FTP.

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
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My LT is 320 and my best 1min is 712. I can hit 400w spurts to power over rollers all day without any problems and my LT has never effected my ability to put out such efforts. Neither are poor for my weight, but I found that my 5min. power had been heavily neglected due to this FTP or die approach so I trained it and BAM, FTP jumps 10 watts. An athlete should complete the power tests, fatigue profiles, and figure out what their sport requires before making the blanket statement of 'do FTP work to get better'. While it should be a huge part of most programs for general prep reasons, it might not do anything for an athlete depending on their types of races. Moreover, I found that another weakness of mine was doing L6 efforts from a Tempo pace and back down to it. I tried doing FTP work for a few months and it didn't seem to help, but doing SST intervals with bursts every 2 minutes twice a week did the trick real nice.

Anyways, to the person asking the L6 question I think its just too hard to give SAFE guidelines. Too much L6 and the wrong type of it can do more bad than good in many cases.

Interesting.
I'm quite similar ... 1min is up in 'domestic pro' region but FTP is in Cat 2 with 5min in between.
SST with surges every few minutes really does some good things. It's hilarious how tempo feels after 30 minutes of doing a surge every 3 minutes or so.
I also like doing things like going at 120% at the base of a climb, then settling in at SST and then finishing off the last few minutes at 120% again.