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 Post subject: help me off my plateau
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:28 am 
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Location: Locating.......25%
Hey,
Ive only recently done another Vo2 max test and my heart rate zones have changed, And my training has changed 2, for the past few months i have been doin efforts at 162-175BPM, My new program requires me to do them at 180-190bpm, I have just tried it today and am having lots of trouble even getting up to 180, i cant get past about 175. What is causing this? myself i believe it is a mind over matter thing but any oppinions or suggestions would be much appreciated.
Thanx
Joe

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:33 am 
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curlymcbird wrote:
Hey,
Ive only recently done another Vo2 max test and my heart rate zones have changed, And my training has changed 2, for the past few months i have been doin efforts at 162-175BPM, My new program requires me to do them at 180-190bpm, I have just tried it today and am having lots of trouble even getting up to 180, i cant get past about 175. What is causing this? myself i believe it is a mind over matter thing but any oppinions or suggestions would be much appreciated.
Thanx
Joe


Whats your current:
Max HR and Lactic Threshold HR?

Get yourself a good HR monitor book.

Most books will recommend building a good base fitness before your body is able to effectively do interval training to raise your LT HR.

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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:33 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:02 am 
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Location: The Netherlands - Europe
curlymcbird wrote:
Hey,
Ive only recently done another Vo2 max test and my heart rate zones have changed, And my training has changed 2, for the past few months i have been doin efforts at 162-175BPM, My new program requires me to do them at 180-190bpm, I have just tried it today and am having lots of trouble even getting up to 180, i cant get past about 175. What is causing this? myself i believe it is a mind over matter thing but any oppinions or suggestions would be much appreciated.
Thanx
Joe


Tippster allready asked some relevant questions. Are those 180-190 intervals meant to be in the range of your LT (Lactatic Threshold)? How long are they supposed to be?

I would like to add this: It could well be that you are simply tired, while you were fit during the test. A lowered HRmax and HR at LT can be a sign of this.

A cyclist I know had the exact opposite: He had a max test and reached a HRmax of 190. Not more than a week later he did a timetrial of around 30kms. His HR graph showed longer periods above 200, with a max of 219! He must have been totally spent going into the test.

If you want to maximise your results, you will have to start listening to your body instead of the HR monitor. Your new program requires you nothing. Use it as a guideline, but change it according to how you feel.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:12 am 
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Location: Locating.......25%
my max hr is 196 and i dont know my max lactic threshhold. the efforts are 3*10kms. I have talked to a few people about it and most have said that i probably need a bit of a rest, ill take the next few days easy before the Junior tour on the W/E, would you suggest just recovery rides or no bike at all?
Thanks
Joe

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:12 pm 
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Location: The Netherlands - Europe
curlymcbird wrote:
my max hr is 196 and i dont know my max lactic threshhold. the efforts are 3*10kms.


Well... your LT should be somewhere between 84% and 94% of your max. If you are well trained and experienced, it will probably be closer to the highest number. That corresponds to a HR of around 180, maybe somewhat higher... so...

your program requires you to do 10km intervals ABOVE your LT.

Dump the program, read a lot about training and create a better one I would say...

curlymcbird wrote:
I have talked to a few people about it and most have said that i probably need a bit of a rest, ill take the next few days easy before the Junior tour on the W/E, would you suggest just recovery rides or no bike at all?
Thanks
Joe


Just recovery rides. But keep them below 1hr and at a very slow pace. Not just slow. VERY slow. Just spin.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:11 pm 
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curlymcbird wrote:
my max hr is 196 and i dont know my max lactic threshhold. the efforts are 3*10kms. I have talked to a few people about it and most have said that i probably need a bit of a rest, ill take the next few days easy before the Junior tour on the W/E, would you suggest just recovery rides or no bike at all?
Thanks
Joe


How old are you?

a max HR of 196 and "junior"???
I'd expect a junior HR to be above 200...!!!

I'm 30 years old and max HR of 200.

As expressed in another post, riders can often get a test HR below that reached in racing. For an accurate HR test, stretch then warm up for at least 5 minutes riding on the bike. Raise you HR by 5 in 2 minute intervals.

I find doing the test on a hill or into a strong wind helps to get my HR up. Your Max HR is the highest reading on your HRM. Likely the true reading comes just before you fall off the bike.


To effectively train you need to know your Max HR and LT HR. From these benchmarks you can tell whether you are training aerobically or anaerobically.

If you are in doubt, I'd try holding a conversation or singing on the bike as a guide as to which zone you are in...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:17 pm 
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Tippster wrote:
How old are you?

a max HR of 196 and "junior"???
I'd expect a junior HR to be above 200...!!!

I'm 30 years old and max HR of 200.


Heartrates vary by a lot. I also never reached 200+ a lot in my life. I am 28 now and my max heartrate hovers around 190.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:36 pm 
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I've seen an untrained 22 yr old reach 200 without alot of effort.

I strugle to reach my max just before I'm overtraining, but over time you will learn the Lactic Acid threshold HR even when you're strugling to reach your max.

It sounds like your program whats you to do Lactic Acid threshold (LT) training to help train your body to buffer LA and reduce muscle fatigue at time trial pace.

You should first locate your threshold HR and then train to spend more time at that threshold (which over time will reduce your HR at that output).

90% of your max is a rough guide of your LT HR and it will move as you become conditioned and trained.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:39 pm 
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I'm 20 and my Max is 196, so I don't think thats anything to worry about.
You can find out roughly what you LT is by slowly increacing your HR. But it wont be that accurate.

My LT is 192bpm, I think the key is to close the gap between the LT and the Max HR. For the very best this can be just 1 or 2 bpm.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:00 pm 
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mattpage wrote:
I'm 20 and my Max is 196, so I don't think thats anything to worry about.
You can find out roughly what you LT is by slowly increacing your HR. But it wont be that accurate.

My LT is 192bpm, I think the key is to close the gap between the LT and the Max HR. For the very best this can be just 1 or 2 bpm.


LT 192 and MAX 196, for sure you're a professional cyclist by now? I like to take most "training" posts on here with a grain of salt, but this is the strangest post I've read yet. It would mean you only have 2% between LT and MAX... I think on average the best pros have a gap of 5%, coming from 15%-10% when they were younger. Yes, getting this number down is one of the most important goals in training, but man you've got some training schedule!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:47 pm 
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Comparison of heart rate information between individuals is meaningless and provides no indication of performance.

Regarding a performance plateau, the first thing to do is take a rest week, then enter a rebuild phase of a couple weeks based upon high L3 to low L4 efforts of fairly long duration. Then work in your L5 efforts.

Finally, many consider 3X10 efforts a nonoptimal zone. 2X20 minutes are better at increasing FTP, and 6X5 minutes are better at increasing VO2 Max.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:54 pm 
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leonardo da vinci wrote:
LT 192 and MAX 196, for sure you're a professional cyclist by now? I like to take most "training" posts on here with a grain of salt, but this is the strangest post I've read yet. It would mean you only have 2% between LT and MAX... I think on average the best pros have a gap of 5%, coming from 15%-10% when they were younger. Yes, getting this number down is one of the most important goals in training, but man you've got some training schedule!


Well it's true :)
I have done several maximal test, I always get up to 195 or 196. Never any higher, always properly rested etc.

And no I'm not a professional, its only my first season of racing (XC MTB).
I am getting my LT restested soon, so maybe it has changed, I hope it hasnt gone down :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:30 pm 
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leonardo da vinci wrote:
mattpage wrote:
I'm 20 and my Max is 196, so I don't think thats anything to worry about.
You can find out roughly what you LT is by slowly increacing your HR. But it wont be that accurate.

My LT is 192bpm, I think the key is to close the gap between the LT and the Max HR. For the very best this can be just 1 or 2 bpm.


LT 192 and MAX 196, for sure you're a professional cyclist by now? I like to take most "training" posts on here with a grain of salt, but this is the strangest post I've read yet. It would mean you only have 2% between LT and MAX... I think on average the best pros have a gap of 5%, coming from 15%-10% when they were younger. Yes, getting this number down is one of the most important goals in training, but man you've got some training schedule!


Last year my sister and I did the same ergometer test at the same testcentre. Both we had a max heartrate of 209bpm. But my lactate threshold was only 179bpm and the lactate threshold of my sister was 200!!!

There was also I big difference in training between us :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:13 am 
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Leonardo has made an interesting point here, there are some very strange things being thrown around here.

Your LT is only 4 beats off your max - at 98%? I find that very hard to believe.

Research published in 2000 on Big Mig showed his OBLA HR to be 183, his max HR to be 195. That is at 93.8%.

In my 10 years or so as a physiologist, I have not seen many people with such high figures, that includes a Hawaiian Ironman top 5 finisher who was a cycling freak.

Could not agree more - take what you read with a grain of salt....


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 Post subject:
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:13 am 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:46 am 
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I knew that the values were ok, but I didn't believe that they were that different.

I can understand people not believing me though.
I can only hold my HR at or close to my LT (191) for relavtivly short periods.

I havnt tested this, but I think anything over 30minutes would be too much for me at the moment. I have held it at 191 for the entire first lap of a XC race, and that is around 20-25min.


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