How do I improve my climbing?

[nfecyle]

Sorry I have a question,

Would hill repeat improve climbing recovery ? The reason I asked this is that I normally can keep up with lighter guys during short climb (less that 1 mile i'd say). The problem is that when we got to the top of the hill which I often get dropped. It seems that I recover very slow after the climb. Is that just simply mean I go too hard during the climb that I cant recover fast ? The feeling is that I can crank up the effort on a steady climb, but when the gradient change or the cadence change I have difficulties to put the same effort. Or maybe I simply just too fat, and climb is not for me

[vlastrada]

there are always margins of improvement, so no reason to give up!

hill repeats with short recoveries and more generally repeats with short recoveries should definitely help.

often I see riders hitting the base of the climb hard but not able to sustain the pace further up the climb - it's a very common issue.
where strong climbers most often make the difference is precisely the last part of climbs, through to cresting.
low body fat (and thus low weight) really makes a huge difference there; most riders can put in a good punch at the bottom of a climb, but only few can sustain it.

your ability to sustain longer efforts is something you might want to work on...including by tackling climbs hitting the last third hard with an aggressive progression. and yes, it will hurt

ultimately, either you pace it more conservatively at the bottom, or you improve your power to weight ratio

[Tapeworm]

Sorry I have a question,

Would hill repeat improve climbing recovery ?

Well it will improve your "fitness" in general, and thus this will aid recovery. And theorised that due to the different inertia load this may result in a different neuromuscular firing pattern being utilised - so, yes.

The reason I asked this is that I normally can keep up with lighter guys during short climb (less that 1 mile i'd say). The problem is that when we got to the top of the hill which I often get dropped.

Not knowing the data here but its highly likely you are pushing a greater number of watts - and thus fatigued more at the top. Power to weight ratio is king. So if your riding buddies are 75kgs and pushing 250 watts (3.33w/kg), and you're 80kgs then you're having to put out 266 watts for the same speed (not including rolling resistance, drag etc).

It seems that I recover very slow after the climb. Is that just simply mean I go too hard during the climb that I cant recover fast ? The feeling is that I can crank up the effort on a steady climb, but when the gradient change or the cadence change I have difficulties to put the same effort. Or maybe I simply just too fat, and climb is not for me

As mentioned earlier in the thread, you need to a) work on developing more watts and b) drop weight, to go faster (repeatedly) up the climbs. Do enough of a) and b) becomes easier

Certainly incorporating work on the gradients is a good idea - but if you don't have hills nearby then anything that boosts your FTP will be a help here.

[nfecyle]

Thanks for the advice guys. I do a lot hills, well mostly short hill (2 mi less) when I am out riding, but I have never done specific hill work out.

[teleguy57]

As mentioned earlier in the thread, you need to a) work on developing more watts and b) drop weight, to go faster (repeatedly) up the climbs. Do enough of a) and b) becomes easier

Someone thinks of it slightly differently

[Tinea Pedis]

Whilst Greg is correct, I can vouch that climbs do get 'easier' as you drop weight.

[vlastrada]

eh eh...exactly...i'd like to see LeMond attacking those steep European climbs today and see whether it feels the same or what
I really look up to him though, sharp mind and massive engine

[eric]

I normally can keep up with lighter guys during short climb (less that 1 mile i'd say).

That's because you have more anaerobic work capacity than smaller riders.

The problem is that when we got to the top of the hill which I often get dropped.

If you are getting dropped right at the top, then it is probably a mental problem- you are letting off the power when you get to the top while the other guys keep it on until they are well over the top. Practice not letting up until you're over the top and in a big gear. It's only 10-20 seconds longer.

If you are getting dropped after a mile, even on 2 mile climbs, then it's because you're depending too much on your anaerobic power. You could to improve that but there's only so much that can be done there. A better way would be to increase your FTP and/or reduce weight. That way you have to use less anaerobic power to keep up. There are a lot of FTP type workouts (20 min intervals, SST) and of course weight loss is simple in concept.

[Tapeworm]

AWC is probably not a significant factor in something that lasts longer than 1min. I would hazard a guess that a 1km-1.6km climb would take longer than a minute, so I think a higher AWC is not the reason.

As mentioned above, it's probably that the w/kg ratio is too heavy on the w side (pun intended).

[nfecyle]

yes, my weight is on high side, still working on the weight. If I think about it again, It might be mental problem, just what Eric said. When I see the top of high or the gradient lessens, I see it as recovery time. I tend to switch to easier gear and spin higher, but my leg can not spin fast enough to keep up the same effort.

[Tinea Pedis]

eh eh...exactly...i'd like to see LeMond attacking those steep European climbs today and see whether it feels the same or what
I really look up to him though, sharp mind and massive engine

?

His power to weight was impressive, you don't win Tours simply because you have a great Vo2. I doubt he would be 'embarrassed' by today's climbers. However it's an asinine debate, as the amount of other variables are huge. However on raw numbers, Greg almost seems to be where riders are now coming back to (with the tightening down on doping).

but my leg can not spin fast enough to keep up the same effort

Then it sounds like it's still a physiological limitation.

[vlastrada]

yes, but that's not what I meant, absolutely nothing to do with today's climbers....all I said is that lowering weight makes climbing fast much easier, and today's (pretty heavy) Lemond must feel that way when he does tough gran fondo climbs around Europe...

and of course Lemond's power to weight ratio was huge...that's what massive engine means...not sure how accurate power measurement was back then, but his V02 max was one of the highest ever recorded > 90 ml/kg/min. everyone knows that V02 max is a partial measure but with a number like that....

[Rick]

yes, my weight is on high side, still working on the weight. If I think about it again, It might be mental problem, just what Eric said. When I see the top of high or the gradient lessens, I see it as recovery time. I tend to switch to easier gear and spin higher, but my leg can not spin fast enough to keep up the same effort.

If you are suffering on the hill (like I do a lot) you anticipate being able to back off a little at the top. But the good climbers see it as their opportunity to goose it a little and shake off the fat guys. So you have to mentally force yourself to not let up until well over the crest, even if that means going absolutely into the red zone. Easy to say...hard to do. In a pro race, there might be organized chase groups and such, but in amateur racing it is usually just the strong guys riding away and you will never see them again. So you might as well go all out to stay with them, or your race is over anyway. Just remember that YOU only have to stay with the pack to achieve your goal, THEY have to keep going and pushing the pace. So if you can even get close to them on power/weight/motivation, you can usually stay with the lead pack.
Just imagine every hill crest is the final sprint into Heaven, and Satan himself is running up behind you, trying to jab his red hot scepter into your ass. ...or that you are being chased by a pack of rabid hyenas.

Of course sometimes you just get your ass handed to you. We all know how that feels.

Maybe others are different, but I can torture myself for months and make only minescule power gains. But nearly everyone (certainly me) can lose 20 lbs. If you do the math, and 20 lb weight lose can shift you a looooooong way on the typical categories W/kg scale.

[Tinea Pedis]

and of course Lemond's power to weight ratio was huge...that's what massive engine means...

Sorry, but I know plenty of riders who had/have a huge Vo2 but don't have as good a power to weight as others.

They are not exclusive variables, but a high Vo2 does not automatically mean a high w/kg.

[airwise]

I'm with TP.

If you want to climb faster, lose weight. That's been my experience.

With modern gearing a long climb is little more than a TT, the difference being that power to weight is now the determinant of speed rather than absolute power or aerodynamics.

I find it easier to shift 10% of my body weight than to increase FTP by a similar amount.

When I'm riding in the Summer my weight is circa 65kg. Off season it's 70-72kg sometimes more. And boy do I feel those extra kg's - regardless of speed or power output.

So work on diet.

Also work the turbo at high resistance for an hour at a time. If you have an ergo mode on your trainer use that. Get used to constant stress on the legs for long periods.