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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 41
I agree that highly specific training is what is required to reach world-class level. But for amateur multisport athletes, there are a whole other host of constraints which exert themselves long before they will approach that level. In the case of triathlon, you have the logistical nightmare of training three sports, plus job, children and spouse. "Optimum" training, given that full context, looks a lot different from what a pro has to deal with... the amateur can't elect to take a nap or two extra whenever s/he begins overreaching. Now consider the heavy recovery toll running takes, even for those who don't manage to injure themselves. There has got to be a better way. Here is a real-word example of effective cross-training:

(1) In Oly Tri's, I've run 10k in 37-38 minutes a half dozen times
(2) The only solo 15k I've run in 59m flat
(3) The only solo half marathons I've run -both hilly- in less than 1h28m (even had a glass of champagne on one of those).

These run performances were achieved on:
(1) SWIM: 7.5hrs/week masters swimming
(2) BIKE: 4hrs/week cycling
(3) RUN: ... wait for it... a single moderately hard 6 mile run the week before each race. Effectively, no running.
Note: the only organized sport I've ever played was 13-14 baseball... where I sucked.

You've asked me to explain WHY cross-training works. I too would like to know WHY a given training protocol/intervention works. I think we are both genuinely curious about "The WHY" of training.

Here's my first, least try at explaining "The WHY": cross training provokes central adaptations, even in quite fit people. Although these adaptations are insufficient to bring an athlete to world class level, they are powerful enough to get you well ahead of MOP. Improvement well beyond that point will eventually require specificity.

Tapeworm wrote:
Magellan3000 wrote:
...Yet your reference then asserts "... the principles of specificity of training are likely to have greater significance" and "Both scientific evidence and anecdotal reports overwhelmingly indicate that the best way... " but makes no attempt to present or cite such evidence.


Sometime the evidence is self-evident.

I don't need the principal of specificity proved behind reasonable doubt simply because it is played out on very large scales on a daily basis. The trick is to prove that there are other ways to achieve the same result. The answer to date has been no. Yes the research is somewhat lacking but there could be a reason for this ie: training said activity gets you better in that activity is kinda hard to argue, and really, why would you want to?

So it's not to me to disprove crosstraining rather for you to prove WHY it works (or doesn't) as if it were self evident that crosstraining works then more cyclists would be running marathons and vice versa.

Aside from injury, rehab, posterial correction etc I have seen no evidence that cross training is anything other than the usual "fitness industy" mumbo jumbo. Right up there with "core workouts", and "protein shakes".

Simplicity and specificity should be embraced on a more regular basis.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:57 am 
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This thread is like listening to a really annoying catchy song. I just can't stop.

To detract slightly from the conversation, why don't you put some Rotor Q-Rings on your Powercranks. That'd be an interesting combo.

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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:57 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:25 am 
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Posts: 2342
Oh the humanity!

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:15 pm
Posts: 40
devinci wrote:
I say no

it as been shown that pedaling circle is kind of an exagerated thing. A study shown the pros push more on the down stroke then amateur and these pros pull less on the upstroke then amateur. I dont think you need these to be better or to have a better pedaling technique. I also read somewhere (cant remember where) that pedaling technique is pretty much overrated in cycling, the only thing that matters is producing power, whatever method you use, it wasnt said like that, but...


I have a set on a second bike. I can tell a difference in my power output and my technique. They are especially good for improving your climbing. However, the cranks require practice and simply getting to the point where you stand to benefit from the cranks can take weeks. Because they are not easy to ride, the cranks are time consuming and tend to throw off any cycling routine/training plan -unless you use the cranks during the offseason.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 41
Update:

I've now been training on PowerCranks for 5-6 weeks*. Total cycling milage about ~460 miles.
Cycling: My FTP has gone from 236 watts to 285 watts (305 watt 20-minute test). Both measured with PowerTap. The 236 effort was everything I had, while the 300 was lower than I am sure I can do.
Running: Total running mileage over 5-6 weeks is about ~30 miles. My current long slow distance pace (which I run at ~130 BPM, a little less than my 'Maffetone' HR) is ~8:15/mile. Remarkable since last year -when the only thing I was doing was running- my threshold pace was ~8:00/mile, at a HR of 160 BPM.

I sure hope PowerCranks and my training keep "not working" like this.

EDIT:
The above improvement is:

100%*[(285-236)/236] ~= 21%. <= (edit #2 note: changed the 20-min test figure to its implied FTP of 285 watts)

I never did believe that '40% improvement in power' figure (rumored to be somewhere on the PowerCranks website)... buh... buh... buh... ruh-roh Scooby... a 21% improvement in a few weeks sounds like I'm on the right path. <= (edit #2 note: updated % improvement to reflect FTP, not 20-minute power)

How many more watts does the research say I can get in the next 6 months? I want a challenge: exceed what the experts say is possible.

* I had previously owned another pair of PowerCranks which I had installed on my commuter bike. However, that bike was stolen 2+ years ago. In any case, I never "trained" on it or even rode consistently on it.


Last edited by Magellan3000 on Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:53 pm 
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You of course have to be able to quantify that your improvement is solely due to the magic of powercranks. I would argue that such an improvement would have been just as achievable with normal cranks.

As for the running, once again you shown improvement with minimal running, to make your point valid you would have to show that it's better than just running.

I'll also quickly add that hopefully your PT has been calibrated and zeroed each ride.

How did you determine your running threshold? Not by HR I hope.

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 41
If you'd care to check out my power files, give me a place to e-mail them.

Locutions like 'would argue' and 'make your point valid' and similar highlight a key problem: your focus on making the world fit your mental model, rather than the converse. I start with:
(1) training, nutrition and recovery protocols
(2) some mental model of how my body works in responds to these

But my end goal is in performing as an amateur athlete.

I look at the training results and adapt. If I don't improve, I change the protocols AND my mental model. If a mental model doesn't explain reality, it is wrong.

Tapeworm wrote:
You of course have to be able to quantify that your improvement is solely due to the magic of powercranks. I would argue that such an improvement would have been just as achievable with normal cranks.

As for the running, once again you shown improvement with minimal running, to make your point valid you would have to show that it's better than just running.

I'll also quickly add that hopefully your PT has been calibrated and zeroed each ride.

How did you determine your running threshold? Not by HR I hope.


Last edited by Magellan3000 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:02 am 
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Tapeworm wrote:
... As for the running, once again you shown improvement with minimal running, to make your point valid you would have to show that it's better than just running.

Not quite. I showed running improvement by almost eliminating running altogether (dropping from 35-50 miles/week to about 5 miles/week) and cycling with PowerCranks.

Tapeworm wrote:
... I'll also quickly add that hopefully your PT has been calibrated and zeroed each ride.

Never bank on hope. The PT was calibrated and zeroed for each ride.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:14 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:08 pm
Posts: 60
Magellan3000 sounds like a late night infomercial trying to get me to buy hair cream. This is foolishness.

I have one response: TL;DR


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 41
"Foolishness" backed up by power files and performance; evidence. Funny how some folks claim to respect evidence, but when evidence is actually offered, they fall silent or resort to personal attacks. I don't have any relationship whatsoever with the company and never have. I use the product and am very happy with the results so far.

If are an actual athlete and live anywhere near Washington, DC, let's go for a ride or run. If you are an armchair athlete, armchair exercise physiologist, or armchair coach, please accept my invitation to STFU.

P.S.: I don't know what TL;DR means.

tylerjandreau wrote:
Magellan3000 sounds like a late night infomercial trying to get me to buy hair cream. This is foolishness.

I have one response: TL;DR


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:58 pm
Posts: 460
Location: Ontario, Canada
Magellan3000 wrote:
P.S.: I don't know what TL;DR means.
]


http://tinyurl.com/buj9ym
:wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:59 pm 
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Y'all be posting in a troll thread

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:55 pm 
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Posts: 60
Troller's gotta be trollin'.

Anyway, Magellan3000, your only posts in this forum have been in this specific topic. You have no "community" credibility like Tapeworm et. al. Typically we see this behavior when bandwaggoners are trying to promote a product. There is no such thing as bad PR, correct? I know you say you're not affiliated with PC, but I am still suspect. Please note this isn't a personal attack.

I am still skeptical that your athletic ability can solely depend on the PowerCranks. It seems very likely that a year of working out with any type of cranks would boost your FTP from 230. Yes, data this, data that. You are neglecting that we have no comparison to look at, we just have your word. Maybe you and your twin brother want to get together, do exactly the same workouts, you on PC and him on standard cranks for a year and then post back here. I am not saying they don't work, I am saying training works.

I could send you my power numbers from one year ago and then today. You would see a significant improvement. I could make some stuff up and say that it is the tires I've been using or my spokes or something. In reality, improvements are made with time in the saddle, sneakers or pool.

Also, I'd be careful who you smack talk in here. Many of the posters are local and domestic pros. I know there are even some pro's around here. I'm a lowly member, my FTP is only 382 W. I wish I could take you up on your offer of a DC ride, maybe some other time. I want you to get another year of Power Cranking before dropping you :P


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:17 pm 
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tylerjandreau wrote:
your only posts in this forum have been in this specific topic. :P
That is a lie, as you know. or are too lazy to discover, or simply wish misrepresent. Nice work there. This particular topic gets me fired up because most of the negative posts are by people who have literally no direct experience with the thing they are busting on. I've never posted on training with power, because I don't yet know enough based on personal experience to do so. Wouldn't it be great if everyone on the forums were that responsible?

tylerjandreau wrote:
... I am still skeptical that your athletic ability can solely depend on the PowerCranks. :P
I'm not by any means attributing it to PowerCranks alone. I'm just flat out stating: I am doing almost no running, some sporadic swimming and (for me) a fair amount of intense power-based riding and am getting good results in both cycling and running.

tylerjandreau wrote:
You are neglecting that we have no comparison to look at, we just have your word. :P
You have my word AND my offer of my power files.

tylerjandreau wrote:
In reality, improvements are made with time in the saddle, sneakers or pool. :P
This is where some bozo chimes in to clarify: "In reality, improvements are made with time in the saddle, except when you are riding PCs, which can't possibly work."

tylerjandreau wrote:
I'd be careful who you smack talk in here. Many of the posters are local and domestic pros. I know there are even some pro's around here. I'm a lowly member, my FTP is only 382 W. I wish I could take you up on your offer of a DC ride, maybe some other time. I want you to get another year of Power Cranking before dropping you :P
I'm not talking smack. Acknowledged: there are plenty of people who are way ahead of me in FTP, including you at 382 W. I'm just saying I am for real. The training I'm doing and the results I'm getting are for real.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:08 pm
Posts: 60
Did you put these dumb happy faces by all my quotes on purpose? :P

Also, if you're so fired up about these cranks, you should do a study.

How to do a study:

1.) Acknowledge that people know more than you about things.
2.) Have a desire to learn.
3.) Find a friend around your ability.
4.) Talk to that friend.
5.) Work out a training schedule, you guys do the same workouts on the same days. You use the PC, he uses normal cranks.
6.) Work out an athletic decathlon. 20 min power test, 5k run, 800 m swim something like that
7.) The study lasts 12 weeks. This will give the body two adaptation cycles.
8.) Test again.
9.) See who improved more
10.) Post results
11.) Receive street cred.
12.) Get laid.

I don't give a shit about your power files. I don't think anyone does. All that will show us is that you got better with training. Not that you got better training with these cranks. Until this study happens, your arguments will fall on deaf ears in this community at least. You're definitely not making any friends by accusing people of being "armchair athletes".

All we do is put up with marketing hype, "testimonials", and reviews from biased sources. Cyclists have been fast before power cranks, and will be fast after power cranks.

In fact, power cranks remind me of something:

http://www.fastexercise.com/

I bite my thumb at you, sir.


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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:31 pm 


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