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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:18 am 
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Tomorrow I start my 2x20s for the season, 3 days in a row @ 90% of a FTP that I just adjusted down 10% due to some time off and the added stress of training indoors. I would not be surprised if I didn't get through my last workout.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:48 am 
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Well, I can't sway you otherwise so good luck and enjoy your training!

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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:48 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:22 am 
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Here's a more simple premise:- of two riders (all other things being equal) who would be able sustain a 200 watt output for longer - the rider with an FTP of 250 watts, or the ride with an FTP of 350watts?

This is like the that Verizon guy talking to the kids: "Is it better to go slow, or ... is it it better to go FAST?" Luckily, it has gotten more productive since.

Here's another anecdote, this one from 6-time Ironman champ Mark Allen:
Quote:
My coach would give us workouts that were designed to push us to our limit every single day. I would go home dead, sleep as much as I could, then come back the next day for another round of punishing interval sets ...

So that’s what I did. Every run, even the slow ones, for at least one mile, I would try to get close to 5 minute pace. And it worked…sort of. I had some good races the first year or two, but I also suffered from minor injuries and was always feeling one run away from being too burned out to want to continue with my training.

Then came the heart rate monitor. A man named Phil Maffetone, who had done a lot of research with the monitors, contacted me. He had me try one out according to a very specific protocol. Phil said that I was doing too much anaerobic training, too much speed work, too many high end/high heart rate sessions. I was forcing my body into a chemistry that only burns carbohydrates for fuel by elevating my heart rate so high each time I went out and ran.

To keep my heart rate below 155 beats/minute, I had to slow my pace down to an 8:15 mile. That’s three minutes/mile SLOWER than I had been trying to hit in every single workout I did! My body just couldn’t utilize fat for fuel.

So, for the next four months, I did exclusively aerobic training keeping my heart rate at or below my maximum aerobic heart rate, using the monitor every single workout. And at the end of that period, my pace at the same heart rate of 155 beats/minute had improved by over a minute. And after nearly a year of doing mostly aerobic training, which by the way was much more comfortable and less taxing than the anaerobic style that I was used to, my pace at 155 beats/minute had improved to a blistering 5:20 mile.

That means that I was now able to burn fat for fuel efficiently enough to hold a pace that a year before was redlining my effort at a maximum heart rate of about 190. I had become an aerobic machine! On top of the speed benefit at lower heart rates, I was no longer feeling like I was ready for an injury the next run I went on, and I was feeling fresh after my workouts instead of being totally wasted from them.

There's a place for intervals in Allen's method (click the link for his full approach), but the bulk of training is definitely low intensity.

Incidentally, it was REALLY hard to ride that slow when I first shifted to z2 training. I'd be going up climbs, get passed by the 250 lb woman, or the 80 year-old grandma. It felt humiliating as I did my best to keep my HR down. That transition might've been the hardest thing about going this route. Luckily, you get faster.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:33 am 
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I had the same experience when I started z2 runs, to begin with I was back to jogging and come a slight incline I was walking, it's really hard to go that slowly.
But it gets better and I now do 10km z2 in the same time as it took in z3/4 a few months ago.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:55 am 
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kos wrote:
Quote:
Here's a more simple premise:- of two riders (all other things being equal) who would be able sustain a 200 watt output for longer - the rider with an FTP of 250 watts, or the ride with an FTP of 350watts?

This is like the that Verizon guy talking to the kids: "Is it better to go slow, or ... is it it better to go FAST?" Luckily, it has gotten more productive since.


You were talking about "base". Unfortunetly the "aerobic decoupling" is a hideously bad way of gauging improvements in fitness.

My pithy example there was to demonstrate that "base" is just "fitness". If you raise FTP you raise your "fitness". So what raises FTP? Lots of things in lots of ways. Bucket-loads of Z1-2 may do that but plenty of other things can too. The necessity for "base" before commencing any sort of intensity is also ludicrous.

As for the anecdote from Mark Allen... yep, confirms my earlier point about Pros.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:14 pm 
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Quote:
As for the anecdote from Mark Allen... yep, confirms my earlier point about Pros.

Must be fabulous thinking you know better than the best athletes in the world and their coaches, with their myriad diagnostic tools and experiences.

Unless you have science to back up your assertions (and you haven't bothered to even try), it really comes down to: who do you believe, the people who are most successful at endurance sports, or some random dude on the internet?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:31 pm 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12439075

Confirms what I said above. The subjects rode for 60min at around FTP multiple times per week. That % of vo2 max should be doable often, and intervals done to raise one's threshold should ideally done at around that percentage. Everyone will not ride just as they did in the study (5hrs a week, all 5hrs at threshold), so one can only extrapolate to their own training, however, doing SST work at only 90% of this number is only 75%-80% of vo2 max. If its so hard that you can't go out on a normal day (no undue fatigue) and bust out that 60min, your FTP simply isn't set right.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:53 pm 
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My FTP is set right, I won't even legitimize that comment with further response. And yeah sure I could do it, especially if I only rode 5hrs a week. But I train with discipline and consistency, plus I ride nearly 700 hours a year. I have spent January ripping my legs off, I know how it turns out for me.

A wise man on another forum actually threw out a quote that I liked just the other day, so I will steal it (swampy if you come across this thanks :)), "it is training, not straining".

Anyway, I am done with these training threads on this forum, I am just not in to wasting my time.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:19 pm 
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I ride just as much a year as you and could still belt out a 60min at my FTP any day of the week unless I had done something extremely depleting the day before. I can't remember the last time I couldn't go out and ride a 20min effort up a climb at FTP, even at the tail end of a 5hr ride.

If riding at 75% of your vo2 max is ripping your legs off, you should take up Ironman triathlons because ripping your legs off in a road race comes at a much higher percentage of vo2 max.

Like I said, if it makes you happy, go for it. Don't get offended and arrogant. I'm merely reiterating what studies report and one of the greatest follies that every PM owner makes at some point by not setting their FTP right because their 20min is significantly high enough that even 95% of that is above their Dmax or 4mmol of lactate. Its a hell of a lot more common than you think, especially in amateurs, to get a FTP that is closer to 90%-92% of a CP20, but then again if your FTP was set too high and you were belting out these SST intervals at 90% and find them straining, then maybe that is indicative of my point because, since your real FTP is lower, you're really training above 95%.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:41 pm 
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kos wrote:
Quote:
As for the anecdote from Mark Allen... yep, confirms my earlier point about Pros.

Must be fabulous thinking you know better than the best athletes in the world and their coaches, with their myriad diagnostic tools and experiences.

Unless you have science to back up your assertions (and you haven't bothered to even try), it really comes down to: who do you believe, the people who are most successful at endurance sports, or some random dude on the internet?


Appeal to authority. What science have you trumped up for your assertions?

I do not think everyone is a moron and I can only assume you're taking some things to heart here for some reason. Hurting preconceived notions?

And I am VERY happy if people choose to follow the mainstream, makes my job far easier.

Which of my assertions would you like my to scientifically backup?

Aerobic decoupling - firstly never validated as a reliable method of tracking improvements outside of a lab. What has been proven, however, is that heart rate can vary for a multitude of reasons including, but not limited to:- dehydration, thermal stress, arousal, stimulants (caffeine), residual fatigue. There are studies are listed on Friel's own article on the TP webpage.

From the anecdote you posted from Allen:-

"My coach would give us workouts that were designed to push us to our limit every single day."

Best coaches in the world huh?

"I was forcing my body into a chemistry that only burns carbohydrates for fuel by elevating my heart rate so high each time I went out and ran."

Physiology fail. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hiit+intervals+fat ... lism+study

Again, pro anecdotes are largely worthless.

As per usual the stuff KW has linked/written is worth a very good read.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:23 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
but then again if your FTP was set too high and you were belting out these SST intervals at 90% and find them straining, then maybe that is indicative of my point because, since your real FTP is lower, you're really training above 95%.

Flip side being, does that not mean it's close to the power you should be holding for SST work?

And Alex Simmons has multiple mentions that FTP is not 95% of 20 min, regardless of the athlete's ability.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:29 pm 
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Appeals to success. Fact is, the bulk of people who do this for a living and win stuff train overwhelmingly in z2. They may get the REASONS why z2 training works wrong, but it's a simple fact that the most successful endurance athletes don't spend their time doing HIT. These are people with access to the best coaches and labs and physiological testing, and they're doing what works best for them. And then they win stuff.

It's that simple.

But the assumption you've made that most requires scientific backup is the notion that HIT trumps z2 endurance training in achieving gains. There are myriad anecdotes, including my own experience, that suggest that z2 is a more effective way to achieve progress. These are people going from HIT to z2 and busting through performance plateus (the study I cited way above has a bunch of them), in addition to Mark Allen, Freddie Rodriguez, and several people in this thread. You called such assertions "pure tripe". It is THAT claim that needs to be supported.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:46 pm 
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kos wrote:
But the assumption you've made that most requires scientific backup is the notion that HIT trumps z2 endurance training in achieving gains.


No where have I made that assumption nor made that claim. And it's utter folly to say "this zone is better than that zone", it shows a gross misunderstanding of training in its fullest sense.

Quote:
There are myriad anecdotes, including my own experience, that suggest that z2 is a more effective way to achieve progress. These are people going from HIT to z2 and busting through performance plateus (the study I cited way above has a bunch of them), in addition to Mark Allen, Freddie Rodriguez, and several people in this thread. You called such assertions "pure tripe". It is THAT claim that needs to be supported.


What I said was tripe was:-

"doing things like Hill repeats and intervals and whatnot led to injury and plateuing performance"

Those things in of themselves do not lead to injury, nor plateauing performance, and the claim is nonsense.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:54 pm 
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:popcorn:

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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:54 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:46 am 
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devinci wrote:
:popcorn:


Might join you with that popcorn Devinci :beerchug:

:popcorn:

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