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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:23 am 
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I seem to suck at vo2 intervals when the effort is over 105% for longer periods (3 mins +) . For example, last night was supposed to be 7x5min @ 108%.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rid ... elm-custom

I had to stand up on the 4th and 5th after about 3 minutes, reduce the effort on the 6th and bailed on the 7th, had nothing left in the legs. I use trainerroad for most of my structured workouts and those that stick to 105% are generally fine. Hard, but do-able. HR/effort in the right place. Go above this and I struggle.

I am trying to figure out what, and if, I can do about this.

Generally, all other sessions are where I would expect them to be. Endurance is just that, with a good low HR. Sweet spot looks to be good, HR actually lower than my zones indicate for a given % FTP, but effort about right.

SS/Threshold - https://www.trainerroad.com/...pot-threshold-custom
Endurance - https://www.trainerroad.com/...des/6044157-fletcher
Short Vo2 - https://www.trainerroad.com/.../rides/6030958-baird

Outdoor sessions although not structured give expected (sometimes even better) results. For example, a club ride gave a nominal power of 92% FTP for close to 3 hours at the weekend.

Based on this, although I very rarely 'officially' test my FTP, I do think it's close, very close in fact.

So, I should be able to do these intervals. I am not new to training, I am relatively unfatigued (-14.5 TSB)

Is it imperative that I get some longer vo2 in at 108%+, or is something like 8 x3min @ 105% sufficient. Are the 1min on/1min off a good alternative?

Could it be a muscular endurance issue and build in more of this before progressing to longer Vo2?

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Location: North Carolina, USA
I used TrainerRoad a lot. I mean like a crapton. VO2 max intervals are hard... really hard. They're supposed to be basically soul-crushing at durations of 4-5 minutes with limited recovery intervals. I wouldn't get down on yourself at all.

Try some workouts where you ramp into the VO2 over 30 seconds, like maybe Mount Alyeska. I find it's a little easier mentally to achieve those intervals when the power ramps into the VO2 instead of just slamming upon it. Another thing worth considering is to use your power meter as a validation of the Kickr. That is, display your actual power meter data on a Garmin, but let the the Kickr and Trainerroad still communicate as normal. It's possible you've got an offset happening where the Kickr's 105% is actually more like 108%-110% at the crank. If that's the case, your perception of outdoor power and indoor power will be justifiably different.

FWIW, my Elite Real B+ rollers will report 5% *below* my Quarq until a workout is around 0:30:00, then the Elite rollers seem to actually report *above* the Quarq nearly 10%. For that reason, I usually adjust the +/- in TrainerRoad about midway through an hour session (I kick them up about 10%). Finally, my only measurement of 'truth' at the end of a workout is my Quarq and HR data on the Garmin. I usually delete the TrainerRoad data itself... that way, my whole training ecosphere is consistently measured on the crank.


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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:04 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:44 pm 
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JackRussellRacing wrote:
I used TrainerRoad a lot. I mean like a crapton. VO2 max intervals are hard... really hard. They're supposed to be basically soul-crushing at durations of 4-5 minutes with limited recovery intervals. I wouldn't get down on yourself at all.

Try some workouts where you ramp into the VO2 over 30 seconds, like maybe Mount Alyeska. I find it's a little easier mentally to achieve those intervals when the power ramps into the VO2 instead of just slamming upon it. Another thing worth considering is to use your power meter as a validation of the Kickr. That is, display your actual power meter data on a Garmin, but let the the Kickr and Trainerroad still communicate as normal. It's possible you've got an offset happening where the Kickr's 105% is actually more like 108%-110% at the crank. If that's the case, your perception of outdoor power and indoor power will be justifiably different.

FWIW, my Elite Real B+ rollers will report 5% *below* my Quarq until a workout is around 0:30:00, then the Elite rollers seem to actually report *above* the Quarq nearly 10%. For that reason, I usually adjust the +/- in TrainerRoad about midway through an hour session (I kick them up about 10%). Finally, my only measurement of 'truth' at the end of a workout is my Quarq and HR data on the Garmin. I usually delete the TrainerRoad data itself... that way, my whole training ecosphere is consistently measured on the crank.


I have used the PM connected to kickr/tr and it does seem to track very well, I have one of the later v2 models and this does appear to be better than the v1. Saying that, I do have a new PM for the race bike on the way and will use the old PM on the gravel/turbo bike and link to kickr.

Will be interesting to see if there is a difference, it might well explain it!

Will look at other intervals as you suggest.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:12 pm
Posts: 115
VO2 max is really tough, I like/dread them! The only advice I can offer is to make sure you are well rested before you do them. I moved my 'VO2 Max' day from Tuesday (really struggled) to Wednesday (more doable) during CX season with a race on the Sunday. Try moving the workout back a day?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:22 pm 
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Posts: 1093
Several potential reasons:

1. As pointed out above, this workout does hurt and you may not have the pain tolerance. You can train that separately.

2. You may be working out at higher than 105%. If there's an error in your measurements, this would be the outcome and it's sadly very common among riders who coach themselves. Taking data from most devices short of a specifically calibrated pwoermeter such as an SRM (with specific calibration procedures employed) can give you a much broader error range than the accuracy statistics for the actual strain gauges will suggest.

3. If you are training without full recovery prior to the test, you can have residual effects that artificially lower your perceived performance.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:24 pm 
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How long are the rest periods? I do a workout of 6 times 4 on 4 off @ 110% ftp and the last couple of intervals are brutal! Frankly, if it was easy there'd be no adaptation.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:36 pm 
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11.4 wrote:
As pointed out above, this workout does hurt and you may not have the pain tolerance. You can train that separately.


How would you suggest people train pain tolerance separately? That is something rarely discussed other than learning to suffer on the bike, but a fascinating topic.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Location: Back in the saddle...
How true. It seems to me whenever a pro is giving a candid interview, and he is speaking highly of another rider, the greatest compliment he can give is, "He really knows how to suffer."

IME, the best way is to simply hurt yourself. Again... and again... and again. Each time it gets a bit easier. There are also tons of mental tricks you can play. One of my favorites is to picture myself somewhere else. Doesn't have to be far. In fact, I often try to see myself standing on the side of the road watching me grind it out. I repeat the mantra, "I'm not here. I'm not here. I'm not here." Crazy concept but I've found it very effective.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:33 pm 
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TheKaiser wrote:
11.4 wrote:
As pointed out above, this workout does hurt and you may not have the pain tolerance. You can train that separately.


How would you suggest people train pain tolerance separately? That is something rarely discussed other than learning to suffer on the bike, but a fascinating topic.

Two schools of thought; either learn not to focus on it or, alternatively, dial into it and appreciate it's a positive as it means the work you're doing is making you stronger! Option 2 is, in my opinion, easier.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:03 pm 
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TheKaiser wrote:
How would you suggest people train pain tolerance separately? That is something rarely discussed other than learning to suffer on the bike, but a fascinating topic.


It's indeed a fascinating topic. There are two basic components: the physical pain and the psychological effect. As far as physical pain, train up in a group where you are pushed to be faster and where the psychological effect isn't quite as much in the forefront.

As far as psychological effect, training in a group helps bypass this problem but you still have to develop it. But if psychological effect overcomes you before physical pain does, you don't develop very far. So I'd work on physical pain in a group and coached setting, and then work on the psychological effect from a stronger physical base. Psychological effect is handled pretty well in mid- to longer- repeat intervals: Ride an interval you know you can repeat for, say, five times, and then ride those five without easing on the speed and without allowing excessive recovery time. You want to be sure you can push it as hard every time (not necessarily faster on later repeats, just the same speed); then on the next set on the next workout day, do the same at a higher pace. You'll reach a point where your legs can do it but your head can't. That's the point to train through.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:03 am 
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Location: Back in the saddle...
Just saw this posted:
http://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-scien ... harebutton

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:37 am 
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Not everyone's power 'curve' is the same - it's possible that your VO2 max is lower than calculated from your FTP (which I would suggest you re-measure). But the basics are if you can't do it, reduce the intensity or duration, and work your way up.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:56 am 
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we have 2 bits of diverging data here. on the one hand the intervals are "harder" than they should be. on the other hand you have done 95% of your ftp for 3 hours. i think look at the devices that are being used and see what you can do to verify their accuracy. failing that use the same device to set your threshold power that you then use for the presentation of 105% or whatever.

could this also be the stationary trainer effect. as i understand it, papers have shown some people have significantly less power on a trainer than on the road.

either way given the lack of precision of some of the devices being used, maybe utilising level of exertion is the way to go. you could dial that in over the course of the intervals. just slightly easier than impossible seems to be the way to go.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:01 pm 
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mrgray wrote:
could this also be the stationary trainer effect. as i understand it, papers have shown some people have significantly less power on a trainer than on the road.


Yes, there are several threads here, and elsewhere online, discussing power discrepancies from road vs. trainer, and flat vs. uphill terrain. Besides the body position difference of flat vs. uphill, there is the variation in the inertia and the rate at which the cyclist slows during the dead spot in the pedal stroke, which then alters the load on the muscles during the power stroke. Trainers, despite their efforts to add ever heavier flywheels and whatnot for "roadlike" feel, still have a different pedaling feel from a moving bike and rider. Here is a decent article on the high/low inertia topic: https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/climbin ... -affected/


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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:01 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:05 pm 
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boysa wrote:
IME, the best way is to simply hurt yourself. Again... and again... and again. Each time it gets a bit easier. There are also tons of mental tricks you can play. One of my favorites is to picture myself somewhere else. Doesn't have to be far. In fact, I often try to see myself standing on the side of the road watching me grind it out. I repeat the mantra, "I'm not here. I'm not here. I'm not here." Crazy concept but I've found it very effective.


You know, in the field of mental health, they would call this combo of techniques "self harm" and "dissociation". :lol:


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