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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:18 am
Posts: 154
Location: uphill
8-12 hours, depends. Weekdays are mostly intervals (Trainerroad)
weekend rides are between 60-70 miles.

Tuesday, thursday, Sat and sun.

AJS914 wrote:
How many miles / hours per week are you training now?

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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:35 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Location: Back in the saddle...
I just reread your op, and you say you "hit the wall" around mile 70 or 80 of a long ride. My question, therefore, is what is your nutrition plan during these rides?
1. How many calories are you looking to take in each hour?
2. How do you break up your fueling, i.e., how often are you eating?
3. What is the substance of your fuel?

My immediate thought is you simply aren't getting enough fuel. My second thought is you simply need more miles in your legs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Fasted training won't necessarily help. To obtain the benefits your diet has to be fairly low in CHO to begin with, but that changes once you replenish. There are enyzmatic and mitochondrial adaptations that have been enhanced in elite athletes in a few studies, but nothing conclusive that would provide profound benefit for the layperson. Standard training near MLSS and above would provide greater gains not only in substrate efficiency at lower outputs, but also economy across the board.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:08 pm 
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In the OP you said you were doing 60min of z2 2-3 times per week but now you're saying you're doing intervals? Which is it?

This is most likely a fitness/pacing issue. Do you have a powermeter? What's your TSS for your weekend rides? A 60 miles group ride could be anywhere between sitting in and doing nothing at Z1 or hammerfest where you expend every ounce of energy. Mileage in and of itself may not prepare you for all types of centuries. Getting in the right intensities during the week is what will do that.

At the end of 2015, I was in peak racing shape and averaging about 200-250 miles per week. When we did our annual Circle of Doom ride (110 miles and 9500 ft of climbing) I bonked like no tomorrow near the top of the almost two hour climb. When I got home, I had a migraine from being so depleted. At the end of 2016, I was doing similar mileage but a lot of Z3 work and I'd do Z3 steady state before my group rides. It made the group rides a lot harder. When we did COD again, I cut my climbing time by 15 minutes and my average power increased by almost 20% with a slightly lower average HR. Again, mileage didn't really change but the quality of the mileage did. Oh, and other than about 800 calories of shredded wheat for breakfast, I think I only had 2 power bars and a coke. The previous year I'm pretty sure I ate a lot more yet still hit the wall super hard.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:18 am
Posts: 154
Location: uphill
This helps.

The intervals happen on Tues and thurs.

I am mixing in Z2 fasted rides on my off days, Mondays and Weds.

Judging by the feedback I've received so far, I may have to change my approach as there have been many valid points rasied so far on extending endurance range.

I think there also needs to be more low GI index foods as fueling strategy.

RyanH wrote:
In the OP you said you were doing 60min of z2 2-3 times per week but now you're saying you're doing intervals? Which is it?

This is most likely a fitness/pacing issue. Do you have a powermeter? What's your TSS for your weekend rides? A 60 miles group ride could be anywhere between sitting in and doing nothing at Z1 or hammerfest where you expend every ounce of energy. Mileage in and of itself may not prepare you for all types of centuries. Getting in the right intensities during the week is what will do that.

At the end of 2015, I was in peak racing shape and averaging about 200-250 miles per week. When we did our annual Circle of Doom ride (110 miles and 9500 ft of climbing) I bonked like no tomorrow near the top of the almost two hour climb. When I got home, I had a migraine from being so depleted. At the end of 2016, I was doing similar mileage but a lot of Z3 work and I'd do Z3 steady state before my group rides. It made the group rides a lot harder. When we did COD again, I cut my climbing time by 15 minutes and my average power increased by almost 20% with a slightly lower average HR. Again, mileage didn't really change but the quality of the mileage did. Oh, and other than about 800 calories of shredded wheat for breakfast, I think I only had 2 power bars and a coke. The previous year I'm pretty sure I ate a lot more yet still hit the wall super hard.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:18 pm
Posts: 58
Location: New England
OP, you're on TrainerRoad, what's your W/kg?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Location: uphill
At the moment it's 3.64 w/kg.

Pan wrote:
OP, you're on TrainerRoad, what's your W/kg?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Location: New England
raspaa wrote:
At the moment it's 3.64 w/kg.

Longer rides and cycling in general is about utilizing your aerobic capacity the most efficiently.
I aim to consume about 400-500 calories per hour. One of my strongest hour powers came from 75 miles into a "friendly" century. I fueled right and my legs didn't feel "tired" or "exhausted" (very different from feeling sore). I swung the hammer down at 330-370W for 30 minutes and then carried it home to the finish around 270. Slower riders called it a voodoo magic, second wind, or just called me a strong rider. Riders who kept up knew what I was doing at mile 60 with my hands and mouth full of Haribo gummy bears -- they kept up or beat me.
Fueling > Fasting.

Story done.


Fasted endurance (no glucose) is Z1. Unless you want to ride at Z1, don't bother fasting to ride a Z1 century.
Above Z2, our body constantly drains both FAT and GLUCOSE at a certain ratio limited by our VO2 max.
We train our BASE and FTP so we can utilize fat more efficiently at maximal aerobic efforts. The ratio of fat+oxygen burn during aerobic exercise increases as we develop more mitochondria. Mitochondria break down carbohydrate and fatty acids (glucose and fat).

An untrained cyclist will utilize only 20% of their fat during sub-maximal aerobic exercise. (2w/kg)
An elite cyclist will utilize up to 55% of their energy from fat while operating at 90% FTP. (5.5w/kg+)

I ride at about 3.7 w/kg and I burn 800cal/hour in a hard group ride pace.
Assuming I burn 37% of my energy at sub maximal aerobic effort (it's a ball park guidance number not elite sports science) this means 63% of my energy comes from glucose.
0.63 * 800 cal = 504 cal GLUCOSE consumed during sustainable aerobic capacity.

Replenish the glucose about 30 minutes before you think you'll need it.
Constantly give your body potassium/sodium because you'll be sweating out salts a lot. Don't worry about the salt, you'll either sweat it out or excrete excess through urination.


Weigh yourself on a scale with gear on, enter it into your cycling computer or Strava and ride at your a target century pace (Z3) for one hour and find how much calories you burn.

Do the math, find foods and liquids that work for you during training.
All your training is useless without proper fueling. Good luck raspaa.

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2013 Bianchi Infinito 105 @ 8.2kg
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 5811
Location: Bay Area
I'm sorta saddened that people have the entire internet at their fingertips and their takeaway is that they need the most convoluted strategy to improve. Fasted training and small tweaks are 1% strategies for when everything else is maximized. From reading your volume and stats you could do well with some calorie monitoring and a standard diet for weight loss and even a somewhat basic, but diverse training plan.

Literally you could pick any path from this: http://www.freewebs.com/velodynamics2/modelplan.pdf and end up more successful. There are so many variables that influence where the calories from riding come from that you're going to go in circles trying to nail that to a T.

If you have time I would also engage in off-the-bike training to offset some of the drop in BMR, leptin, and catabolism that comes with endurance training. It won't increase your watts, but it could increase your w/kg and well-being.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:16 pm 
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Posts: 1090
Fasting training is pretty suspect. What research has been done has been pretty faulty and uncontrolled.

You're basically training yourself to a higher level of endurance, and speed at endurance. Your performance in a fasted state is a byproduct of this training, not a significant driver of it. You basically need to be training the distance, you need to experiment enough to know how you need to replenish to keep your energy level stable, and you need to do a more well-rounded training regimen. If you're fading at 80 miles into a century, well, ... jeez, ... you ran out of energy. A hundred miles requires replenishment and you simply weren't replenishing enough. You'll consume the same energy regardless of whether you've been fast-training or not.

Can fasting training create any measurable benefit? Possibly, but only in an athlete who is extremely conditioned already and in which the body is already metabolizing energy very efficiently and the athlete knows precisely how much additional energy needs to be provided as replenishment. Even then, it's only relying on a small increment of metabolic resources. I've seen other articles that suggest you can alter your insult and leptin levels slightly, but those studies didn't adequately differentiate whether those levels would be altered without fasting and simply by endurance training, and if it were indeed proven, your levels are highly sensitive to your reserve levels and the rate at which you're able to metabolize them. It comes back to the same point: you have to replenish and while you can get to where you burn more efficiently, for something like a century you are better off simply replenishing more.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:18 pm 
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It seems like the OP really wants to lose weight which is why he got on to the fasted rides. He'd be better off with more training, more intensity, and burning more calories.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:18 am 
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Location: Bay Area
You don't need to burn more calories or ride more to get leaner.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Posts: 420
Pan wrote:
We train our BASE and FTP so we can utilize fat more efficiently at maximal aerobic efforts. The ratio of fat+oxygen burn during aerobic exercise increases as we develop more mitochondria. Mitochondria break down carbohydrate and fatty acids (glucose and fat).

An untrained cyclist will utilize only 20% of their fat during sub-maximal aerobic exercise. (2w/kg)
An elite cyclist will utilize up to 55% of their energy from fat while operating at 90% FTP. (5.5w/kg+)


You may already be aware of it, but there is research which suggests that training in a glucose depleted state can enhance mitochondrial biogenesis. So you may be able to speed up or push that adaptation further through use of fasted and/or glucose depleted intervals.

The problem is, there is also research from the AIS, if I recall correctly, which suggests that an excess of glucose depleted training as part of a CHO restricted diet will cause the body to downregulate glucose utilization, so there is a risk that you may compromise your performance in glycolytic high-intensity riding in the effort to improve the ratio of fat utilization at moderate intensities.


Last edited by TheKaiser on Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:56 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
If you have time I would also engage in off-the-bike training to offset some of the drop in BMR, leptin, and catabolism that comes with endurance training. It won't increase your watts, but it could increase your w/kg and well-being.


That is a great point. Do you have any suggestions for a well rounded, basic, off-the-bike, routine?


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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:56 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
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Location: Bay Area
Chris Burnham's book is a good starting place honestly. It's a short read, has a conservative program, and thorough explanations.

The one nice thing about strength training is it typically causes a net anabolic hormonal response, whereas cycling is the complete opposite.

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