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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Fasted training is some of the biggest bro science bullshit in cycling.

First of all you are putting up very poor Watts per kilo numbers considering your weight. You should be focusing on getting stronger and increasing your power output if you want to see any actual results.

If you are in a "fasted" state, you are BONKING. Point blank. Why you would ever want to get to that point is beyond me. Your body runs on carbs, give it what it wants. Working out in a fasted state is WASTING training time. You are selling your body and time short not fueling it.

Do you think the Kenyan Long Distance Running Team is Doing Fasted Training?

"Not surprisingly, a majority of the calories in the Kenyan diet came from carbohydrates. In the ten runners studied, 76.5 percent of daily calories were consumed as carbohydrates. Given their body statistics, this meant each runner was consuming about 10.4 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight."

Something else to keep in mind, starving yourself and yo yo dieting leads to long term metabolic damage. There is also the fact that IGF-1 Hormones found in most Low Carb diets leads to fat and unwanted muscle gain, cancer growth, and a host of other issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:15 pm 
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"fact that IGF-1 Hormones found in most Low Carb diets"

IGF-1 is NOT found in low carb diets... it IS a hormone produced by the body. But is pointless to post vs someone's emotional agenda.. a waste of time when fact is secondary to electrical zeal tween the ears.

"low carb" means different things to different people. In the broad view here in the US caloric intake is miles beyond what is necessary to sustain life.. processed foods are more stables now. The added sugar, salt and industrial types of fat in the US diet makes for the 'waddlers' riding carts in food marts... those often 100+ lbs over a sensible weight. Carbs of late have been getting a large share of the blame... true but not the whole story by miles. A cottage industry developed slamming carb intake.. some justified.. mostly ordinary male cow dung to turn a buck.. same ol' same ol.

Low carb to me means low glycemic index's for the total consumed. This keeps blood sugar from the high spikes of insulin in check... which in my view is one prime source of ill health. My goal is to eat in a manner similar to when our genes evolved w/o using the commercial moniker of 'paleo' which has become just another marketing sign post. How the 'monkey see-- monkey do' crowd markets and employs 'low carb' is of no value/interest to me.


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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:15 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:12 pm 
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You and I both know that most low carb diets are based on high dairy and meat consumption. Go find me one low carb endurance athlete. This is literally insanity. Every great civilization on EARTH has been based on starch based carbs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:22 pm 
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You might THINK YOU know that.. but your using your broad brush. Not all..by miles. Lots of things ain't meat and ain't dairy.. for high quality protein. Your reciting too much internet chatter.

SKY team.. the nutritionist gave interview stating the program is based 'low carb'.

AND... all the great civil's are AWOL.. ours USA is going down.. faster than previous 'greats'.

Carbs is the cheep way to feed the help.. to fill the masses up..when their not drinking it. :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:54 am 
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What are you talking about. Where are the studies? Where is the proof. Team sky is trying to sell you their sponsors protein supplement.

I will take the advise of medically proven journals from doctors, not these joke nutritionists that some of these teams have.

I DARE you to watch this video. Dare you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Think I will pass.

I think some of my previous wording not careful enough.. decorum. But objectively said.. you have
agenda.. I do not. I know the games better than the many... science means objectivity. Not much of it posted per the subject of nutrition.. anywhere.

Will that I'll sail onto other topics. :noidea:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:57 pm 
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if you want to ignore medical journals and the most up to date studies in the medical community go ahead


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:21 pm 
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^
I will do that.
:popcorn:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Posts: 465
Remodelling Muscle to Burn Fat

Quote:
How Nutrition Help Adaptation
Nutrition plays a key role in supporting racing and training efforts. However, nutrient type, timing and total amounts may also be manipulated to stimulate additional beneficial adaptations. Just as training is altered to suit the demands of a race or workout, nutrition must also be adjusted according to the demands and desired outcomes of a training period.

Most athletes are familiar with the idea of ‘periodised training’, but the concept of periodising nutrition is perhaps less well known. However, as suggested by Dr. James Morton, nutrition may turn out to be a more important stimulus than the training itself:

“Although the nature of the training stimulus (i.e. intensity and duration) is important in determining how we respond to exercise training, the nutritional status of the muscle before, during and after exercise can be the dominant factor in enhancing or blunting training adaptations and competition performance” Dr. James Morton (WCCS 2014)2

Consequently, it may be helpful to think about training and nutrition in two phases: a ‘Performance’ phase - racing - and an ‘Adaptation’ phase - training.


Quote:
Training Phase
During training the emphasis should be on stimulating specific adaptations. Whilst a higher carbohydrate approach may be most appropriate for high-intensity sessions which target adaptations for the high power efforts that characterise road races, periods of controlled carbohydrate training may result in adaptations which improve fat metabolism - vital for the prolonged relatively low-intensity efforts which represent the majority of cycling events.

Train-Low/Fasted Training
Whilst training in a low-carbohydrate state (i.e. limiting or depleting carbohydrate prior to a session) has gained a lot of publicity recently, it’s an approach which cyclists have adopted for generations. Anecdotes abound of professional cyclists riding for hundreds of kilometres with only a pre-ride double espresso for ‘sustenance’.

Enhancing Adaptations To Training
A number of studies have demonstrated that periods of low carbohydrate training can enhance adaptations which result in improved fat metabolism.

• Scheduling periods of training in low-carbohydrate conditions could enhance adaptations to endurance training (Hansen et al., 2005)4.
• Reduced carbohydrate availability upregulates oxidative enzyme activity (Moreton et. al., 2009)5.
• Improved whole body fat utilization following training in a low-glycogen state (Yeo et a., 2008)6.
• Training in a low-glycogen state increased IMTG (Intra-Muscular TriGlyceride) utilization (Hulston et. al., 2010)7.


Quote:
Dr. Andrew Philip’s suggested the following: We know that training in a low-glycogen state appears to lead to a greater capacity to use fat stores during exercise (Philip et al. (2012)8. When this up-regulation takes place, proteins called PPAR’s (Peroxisome Proliferator-Activated Receptors) may sense alterations in fatty acid profiles in the cell, locking the protein in an ‘active’ state which drives and enhances adaptations in the mitochondrion - the ‘energy factories’ of our cells (Zechner et al. 2012)9.

Remodelling Muscle
There is a growing body of evidence which suggests that training in a fasted or glycogen depleted state may actually ‘remodel’ muscle tissue in favour of using fat as a fuel. This enhanced adaptation should help riders to produce higher power-outputs whilst predominantly using fat as a fuel, facilitating the later, high-intensity, carbohydrate fuelled efforts as demonstrated by Nibali in his Tour de France stage winning ride.


http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/t ... WtZFcaZNE6


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:10 pm 
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Posts: 465
waltthizzney wrote:
Fasted training is some of the biggest bro science bullshit in cycling.

First of all you are putting up very poor Watts per kilo numbers considering your weight. You should be focusing on getting stronger and increasing your power output if you want to see any actual results.

If you are in a "fasted" state, you are BONKING. Point blank. Why you would ever want to get to that point is beyond me. Your body runs on carbs, give it what it wants. Working out in a fasted state is WASTING training time. You are selling your body and time short not fueling it.

Do you think the Kenyan Long Distance Running Team is Doing Fasted Training?

"Not surprisingly, a majority of the calories in the Kenyan diet came from carbohydrates. In the ten runners studied, 76.5 percent of daily calories were consumed as carbohydrates. Given their body statistics, this meant each runner was consuming about 10.4 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight."

Something else to keep in mind, starving yourself and yo yo dieting leads to long term metabolic damage. There is also the fact that IGF-1 Hormones found in most Low Carb diets leads to fat and unwanted muscle gain, cancer growth, and a host of other issues.


You train in a fasted state. You don't race in a fasted state.

Quote:
What Happens When You Deny Yourself of Glycogen
The big goal of fasted training is to intelligently deny your body of glycogen so that when you go into a workout your body’s fuel preference is fat. For this to happen, intervention in the way of prolonged periods of glycogen intake needs to occur. Without intervention, your body will not be forced to adapt. As a result, it will seek out sugar (the fuel source it likes best) to feed on during your workout.

When intervention does occur, your body is able to gradually replace glycogen consumption with fat consumption during your workout. This is how all that fat-burning magic happens.

If that’s not impressive enough, fasted training also teaches your body how to improve its metabolism when you’re in a rested state. So while many athletes go into fasted training with the sheer desire to lose fat, what they might not fully realize is how in the process they’re making their bodies better at metabolizing fat across the board — that’s metabolic training in a nutshell!

How quickly this transformation happens is subjective and based on the degree you’ve damaged your metabolism in the past. The metabolism of a person who’s been replacing sugary beverages with water for years, for instance, will adapt more quickly than that of someone who recently gave up heavy soda drinking.


Quote:
Two Ways Cyclists Can Implement Fasted Training
There are two manageable and smart ways you can implement fasted training into your routine. The first involves doing your workouts earlier in the day after you’ve had a night of rest and before you’ve had anything to eat.

Early morning workouts are typical for those who do fasted training. After 12+ hours of not consuming any glycogen, most people’s liver stores are depleted and their muscle stores have just enough glycogen in them to get the person through a 60-90 minute workout. This is one of the reasons TrainerRoad’s workouts and structured training plans work well with fasted training —they’re all about that duration.

Warning: If you plan on doing a workout that’s more than 60-90 minutes and you’re going into it fasted, be warned. Depletion occurs naturally after a 60-90 minute workout, so I do not advocate doing high-intensity training in a depleted state. Depletion should come prior to low intensity work or post high-intensity work — but not prior to high-intensity work. High intensity work absolutely needs to be fueled if you want to reap the maximum benefit from your workout — you can’t do that in a glycogen depleted state.

Once your muscle stores are deficient of glycogen, you can expect to hit a wall in your workout, unless your intensity stays fairly low. How soon until that fatigued feeling consumes you will depend on the intensity of your workout. Because lower intensity workouts require less and sometimes very little glycogen, you’ll likely be able to last well past that 60-90 minute period without introducing fuel on the bike.

If you ever find yourself in this position, be very mindful to how you’re feeling and don’t be afraid to bail out of your workout if you need or introduce some quick-digesting carbohydrate into the mix. Something like a sports drink or even a gel washed down with plenty of water should do the trick. One way to tell you’ve crossed that line is the smell of ammonia on your breath.

The second way you can implement fasted training into your routine is by doing two-a-days, i.e. completing two workouts in a 24-hour timeframe. If you’re the type of athlete who feels like they can’t get their best high-intensity workouts done in the mornings, this is probably your best option. I know it is for me.

In the mornings, again before you’ve had anything to eat except for maybe a cup of black coffee, do a soft-pedal workout for about 30 minutes — we recommend the workout “Dans” for this — to reap the benefits of fasted training. Then, in the afternoons or evenings complete your higher intensity workouts. If two-a-days sound like something you might like, start by giving it a try three times a week right out of bed and see how you feel.

Final Words
While fasted training might not be as easy as taking a “miracle” diet pill to lose weight, it’s surely effective. When you practice fasted training not only will your body burn more fat during your workouts, it’ll also become programed to favor fat as its fuel source even when you’re off the bike. But just like any other training tool, fasted training has its place and should be used only when the time is right.

http://blog.trainerroad.com/program-bod ... -training/



Great podcast with TrainerRoad going over fasted training. “How cyclists can use fasted training.”

https://soundcloud.com/trainerroad/ask- ... ad-podcast


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:35 pm
Posts: 159
lol give me a break, why would you train or doing anything in a fasted state? you are throwing away valuable sessions of actually improving your fitness, and are setting yourself up for major weight gain later down the road. TrainerRoad is bro science 101. Go tell the Kenyan olympic marathon team to try fasted training.

You can either carb the *f##k* up, eat real food, have tons of energy, lose weight and gain fitness or waste away like trainer road seems to think is a good idea somehow turning fat into energy at a reasonable activity level which is scientifically impossible


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:21 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:02 am
Posts: 3757
Location: On the bike
waltthizzney wrote:
Fasted training is some of the biggest bro science bullshit in cycling.


waltthizzney wrote:
What are you talking about. Where are the studies? Where is the proof. Team sky is trying to sell you their sponsors protein supplement.

I will take the advise of medically proven journals from doctors, not these joke nutritionists that some of these teams have.


waltthizzney wrote:
if you want to ignore medical journals and the most up to date studies in the medical community go ahead



Wrong. Try again. The only one posting bro science and BS is you.


Periodization of Carbohydrate Intake: Short-Term Effect on Performance.
Marquet LA, Hausswirth C, Molle O, Hawley JA, Burke LM, Tiollier E, Brisswalter J.
Nutrients. 2016 Nov 25;8(12). pii: E755.

Enhanced Endurance Performance by Periodization of Carbohydrate Intake: "Sleep Low" Strategy.
Marquet LA, Brisswalter J, Louis J, Tiollier E, Burke LM, Hawley JA, Hausswirth C.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2016 Apr;48(4):663-72.

Effects of sleeping with reduced carbohydrate availability on acute training responses.
Lane SC, Camera DM, Lassiter DG, Areta JL, Bird SR, Yeo WK, Jeacocke NA, Krook A, Zierath JR, Burke LM, Hawley JA.
J Appl Physiol (1985). 2015 Sep 15;119(6):643-55.

Ramping up the signal: promoting endurance training adaptation in skeletal muscle by nutritional manipulation.
Hawley JA, Morton JP.
Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiol. 2014 Aug;41(8):608-13

Carbohydrate availability and exercise training adaptation: too much of a good thing?
Bartlett JD, Hawley JA, Morton JP.
Eur J Sport Sci. 2015;15(1):3-12. doi: 10.1080/17461391.2014.920926.

Skeletal muscle adaptation and performance responses to once a day versus twice every second day endurance training regimens.
Yeo WK, Paton CD, Garnham AP, Burke LM, Carey AL, Hawley JA.
J Appl Physiol (1985). 2008 Nov;105(5):1462-70.

_________________
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:20 pm 
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A calorie is a unit of energy. In nutrition and everyday language, calories refer to energy consumption through eating and drinking, and energy usage through physical activity. For example, an apple may have 80 calories, while a 1-mile walk might use up about 100 calories.

_________________
How many calories


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Posts: 1518
The potential downside of restricted carbohydrate training:

http://www.velonews.com/2017/08/trainin ... gue_446125

_________________
Colnago C59


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:43 pm 
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AJS914 wrote:
The potential downside of restricted carbohydrate training:

http://www.velonews.com/2017/08/trainin ... gue_446125


"Additionally, Racer X wanted to lose five pounds, so he then decreased carbohydrates even further"

---->>>Dah.... alluding to carb restriction as the ONLY rationale for his issue is not valid.. by miles.

"Surprisingly, he gained three pounds after restricting carbohydrates"

LMFAO... always when I read that kind of drivel. Weight .. as in what the scale sez is a ripe load of male cow dung. Did the dube dump... was the dude over hydrated ... eating sequence vs dump.... geez Louise. Body weight can only be judged on same conditions.. early morn first thing best... SAME conditions. But... it makes the complete light weight flogging of the gripe at hand SEEM valid.

Sounds like this 'guy' had a moron for a "coach".


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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:43 pm 


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