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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:32 pm 
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TheKaiser wrote:
The problem is, there is also research from the AIS, if I recall correctly, which suggests that an excess of glucose depleted training as part of a CHO restricted diet will cause the body to downregulate glucose utilization, so there is a risk that you may compromise your performance in glycolytic high-intensity riding in the effort to improve the ratio of fat utilization at moderate intensities.


This is exactly what I experienced, and despite the possibility of some benefit at the cellular level, I would not venture down that road again.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:15 pm 
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TheKaiser wrote:
You may already be aware of it, but there is research which suggests that training in a glucose depleted state can enhance mitochondrial biogenesis. So you may be able to speed up or push that adaptation further through use of fasted and/or glucose depleted intervals.

The problem is, there is also research from the AIS, if I recall correctly, which suggests that an excess of glucose depleted training as part of a CHO restricted diet will cause the body to downregulate glucose utilization, so there is a risk that you may compromise your performance in glycolytic high-intensity riding in the effort to improve the ratio of fat utilization at moderate intensities.


The AIS work is the part to be focused on. This has been identified independently in studies done by British Cycling and by the Chinese. They've focused on track performance and the effects were quite significant. The Brits also applied it to testing for pro climbers, and found it impaired the performance of top road cyclists when they were measured on climbing tests. Fasting training is a naive theory that hasn't found solid grounding in actual race results.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:04 pm 
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11.4 wrote:

The AIS work is the part to be focused on. This has been identified independently in studies done by British Cycling and by the Chinese. They've focused on track performance and the effects were quite significant. The Brits also applied it to testing for pro climbers, and found it impaired the performance of top road cyclists when they were measured on climbing tests. Fasting training is a naive theory that hasn't found solid grounding in actual race results.


And yet Team Sky does fasted training rides. Dr. James Morton, of Team Sky, has done extensive research into this.

https://youtu.be/jFxb2wpvgxk

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:25 pm 
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There is research that points to a fasted state helps remodel muscle tissue to use fat as fuel. This adaptation helps riders produce higher power while using fat as fuel and helps preserve the more limited carbohydrate stores.

Skeletal muscle adaptation: training twice every second day vs. training once daily.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15361516

This study found that scheduling periods of training in low-carbohydrate conditions could enhance adaptations.

Skeletal muscle adaptation and performance responses to once a day versus twice every second day endurance training regimens.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18772325

Found that following training in a low-glycogen state, individuals display improved whole body fat utilization.

Beneficial metabolic adaptations due to endurance exercise training in the fasted state
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253005/

Found that fasting is more effective than CHO to increase muscular oxidative capacity and at the same time enhances exercise-induced net IMCL degradation.

Fasted morning rides
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowl ... ng-Rides-0

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Have any of you read some the stuff by Ernst Van Aaken? Been many years since his books came out, running specific but there was quite a bit of diet discussion and some workouts along these lines.

The way I remember the fasting was some suggestions on a day of only liquids like orange juice and milk, I don't recall how often. But I do remember one of the workouts. This consisted of going for a run in the evening after your last meal, not that long, I think I used to do 30 minutes but then not refueling before bed. Get up the next morning and run long slow distance fasted.

I'm not sure I would want to be on the bike like that, I can remember being pretty out of it after I got into the long run in the morning. His books were pretty anecdotal, not like reading a study but he did believe in that method of training.

I don't know if it worked for me or not, I ran well back then (for me) but I also trained a lot, was a student and therefore slept a lot.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:11 pm 
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53x12 wrote:
11.4 wrote:

The AIS work is the part to be focused on. This has been identified independently in studies done by British Cycling and by the Chinese. They've focused on track performance and the effects were quite significant. The Brits also applied it to testing for pro climbers, and found it impaired the performance of top road cyclists when they were measured on climbing tests. Fasting training is a naive theory that hasn't found solid grounding in actual race results.


And yet Team Sky does fasted training rides. Dr. James Morton, of Team Sky, has done extensive research into this.

https://youtu.be/jFxb2wpvgxk


Not completely fasted, but with BCAA or protein before. At least as told from two riders that are or were on the team. They also take exogenous ketones sometimes, which is not fasted training.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:20 pm 
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fat utilization does not equal body fast loss. it does not necessarily mean adipose tissue is broke down at large enough rates where one would notice. Also, fat oxidation is increased during the exercise, but not at rest following such exercise. That and the fact that intensity AND oxygen consumption are reduced during exercise and in many cases you have less of an oxidative or caloric impact at the end of the day. Combined with the very minimal differences on the cellular level in a few studies and no real conclusion on the real world practical impact of such sessions it's a forest for the trees situation for a rider that hasn't exhausted even fairly basic strategies so far. Unfortunately strategies like this are gaining undue attention from the types that think quick hacks can drastically alter their results and then the methods get perpetuated.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:07 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
53x12 wrote:
11.4 wrote:

The AIS work is the part to be focused on. This has been identified independently in studies done by British Cycling and by the Chinese. They've focused on track performance and the effects were quite significant. The Brits also applied it to testing for pro climbers, and found it impaired the performance of top road cyclists when they were measured on climbing tests. Fasting training is a naive theory that hasn't found solid grounding in actual race results.


And yet Team Sky does fasted training rides. Dr. James Morton, of Team Sky, has done extensive research into this.

https://youtu.be/jFxb2wpvgxk


Not completely fasted, but with BCAA or protein before. At least as told from two riders that are or were on the team. They also take exogenous ketones sometimes, which is not fasted training.


Team Sky does allow their riders a double espresso pre-ride on some of their fasted state rides as well. For these purposes, a "fasted" and a non-glucose training ride are the samw thing. Wanting to use up glycogen stores in liver and force body adaptation towards fat use. Whether you intake a protein shake during the training ride isn't the point. It is to force your body to improve under the stress of not having glucose to rely on while training.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:15 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
fat utilization does not equal body fast loss. it does not necessarily mean adipose tissue is broke down at large enough rates where one would notice. Also, fat oxidation is increased during the exercise, but not at rest following such exercise. That and the fact that intensity AND oxygen consumption are reduced during exercise and in many cases you have less of an oxidative or caloric impact at the end of the day. Combined with the very minimal differences on the cellular level in a few studies and no real conclusion on the real world practical impact of such sessions it's a forest for the trees situation for a rider that hasn't exhausted even fairly basic strategies so far. Unfortunately strategies like this are gaining undue attention from the types that think quick hacks can drastically alter their results and then the methods get perpetuated.



This isn't a quick hack. Fat utilization means exactly that. Utilizing what 95-98% of the stored energy in a human being is stored as, lipids. While protein is a source, amino acid oxidation is tightly controlled and linked to amino acid (protein) intake. Its total control initial to energy utilization is very insignificant when talking about healthy subjects. Just isn't even worth discussing.

Read this article, it is actually quite good.

Beneficial metabolic adaptations due to endurance exercise training in the fasted state
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253005/

Carbohydrate and fat utilization during rest and physical activity
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9111000060

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"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:04 am 
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53x12 wrote:
KWalker wrote:
53x12 wrote:
11.4 wrote:

The AIS work is the part to be focused on. This has been identified independently in studies done by British Cycling and by the Chinese. They've focused on track performance and the effects were quite significant. The Brits also applied it to testing for pro climbers, and found it impaired the performance of top road cyclists when they were measured on climbing tests. Fasting training is a naive theory that hasn't found solid grounding in actual race results.


And yet Team Sky does fasted training rides. Dr. James Morton, of Team Sky, has done extensive research into this.

https://youtu.be/jFxb2wpvgxk


Not completely fasted, but with BCAA or protein before. At least as told from two riders that are or were on the team. They also take exogenous ketones sometimes, which is not fasted training.


Team Sky does allow their riders a double espresso pre-ride on some of their fasted state rides as well. For these purposes, a "fasted" and a non-glucose training ride are the samw thing. Wanting to use up glycogen stores in liver and force body adaptation towards fat use. Whether you intake a protein shake during the training ride isn't the point. It is to force your body to improve under the stress of not having glucose to rely on while training.


You seem to not be aware that protein is insulinogenic, and ketosis burns ketones, not necessarily fat cells. Also, adrenal responses are different. So no, those two are not fasted rides. BCAA do not undergo the same gluconeogenic conversion process.

And everyone on Sky is in the top .5% of cyclists in the world and are already incredibly fit and lean. Most civilians lack the dietary awareness, good habits, and general physical capacity.

But again, correlation does not equal causation and it's not as widely used as it was in 2012-2013. In fact, very rarely used anymore from the few remaining contacts I've spoken to.

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Gramz
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:17 am 
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53x12 wrote:
KWalker wrote:
fat utilization does not equal body fast loss. it does not necessarily mean adipose tissue is broke down at large enough rates where one would notice. Also, fat oxidation is increased during the exercise, but not at rest following such exercise. That and the fact that intensity AND oxygen consumption are reduced during exercise and in many cases you have less of an oxidative or caloric impact at the end of the day. Combined with the very minimal differences on the cellular level in a few studies and no real conclusion on the real world practical impact of such sessions it's a forest for the trees situation for a rider that hasn't exhausted even fairly basic strategies so far. Unfortunately strategies like this are gaining undue attention from the types that think quick hacks can drastically alter their results and then the methods get perpetuated.



This isn't a quick hack. Fat utilization means exactly that. Utilizing what 95-98% of the stored energy in a human being is stored as, lipids. While protein is a source, amino acid oxidation is tightly controlled and linked to amino acid (protein) intake. Its total control initial to energy utilization is very insignificant when talking about healthy subjects. Just isn't even worth discussing.

Read this article, it is actually quite good.

Beneficial metabolic adaptations due to endurance exercise training in the fasted state
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253005/

Carbohydrate and fat utilization during rest and physical activity
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9111000060


Yes, it is a hack because your respiratory quotient is determined by overall dietary composition over a longer period of time. If you spend 3 days riding fasted with zero carbs and get into ketosis, then 3 days riding with normal carbs, you generally arrive at the same respiratory quotient and burn the same amount of substrates. You might metabolize FFA differently, which are not equal to nor easily liberated from adipose fat when cortisol is high as it is during endurance exercise.

Also, why do people think increased fat oxidation is better? Fat requires more oxygen to produce ATP, so increased oxidation does not mean more energy turnover in the mitochondria.

The first study you link sums up that the CHO group had a slightly lower TTE and the fatmax was similar. Energy burned was nearly identical. Moreover the RER was lower in Fasted, as was vo2. Fat oxidation rate was higher in grams/min in CHO as well! CHO oxidation was higher as well. This study was also done at a reasonably low intensity and didn't address post exercise oxygen consumption, which is lower during CHO limited and fasted training.

So for the average Joe, the marginal cellular benefits aren't going to matter. I can't think of many sports that are further behind than cycling, even crossfitters are prescribing CHO intake again after a single study showed it' detriments to performance.

Here is the best point from the second link, which corroborates a pretty introductory course in physiology:

"However, to produce the same amount of ATP, oxidation of fatty acids requires more oxygen than the oxidation of CHO. For example, the complete oxidation of one molecule of glucose requires 6 molecules of oxygen, while the complete oxidation of stearic acid requires 26 molecules of oxygen."

Considering your o2 intake is relatively fixed, that sounds like a terrible way to produce energy in either pathway unless your goal is to go super low for a very long period of time. Or you are a WT rider that can already store almost 1.75x as much glycogen as a normal person and you might benefit from bumping that up to 1.78 so you don't get fined for taking gels in the last 10km of every climbing stage.

We're dealing with an OP that doesn't ride a very high volume and doesn't have a dedicated history of regimented training and dieting. Simple strategies first.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:53 am 
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Haha... I don't think OP knew what a can of worms he was opening! This is such a fascinating topic.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:27 am 
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KWalker wrote:
You seem to not be aware that protein is insulinogenic, and ketosis burns ketones, not necessarily fat cells. Also, adrenal responses are different. So no, those two are not fasted rides. BCAA do not undergo the same gluconeogenic conversion process.

And everyone on Sky is in the top .5% of cyclists in the world and are already incredibly fit and lean. Most civilians lack the dietary awareness, good habits, and general physical capacity.

But again, correlation does not equal causation and it's not as widely used as it was in 2012-2013. In fact, very rarely used anymore from the few remaining contacts I've spoken to.


1. My background is in the medical field. I can take a picture of my graduate degree and post it if it makes you feel better. I don't know everything about sports medicine/physiology, but I'm not some schmuck on a forum.

2. We (humanity) don't have this all figured out regarding how the body works. I know I sure don't. Even pro-team docs and sports physiologists don't have it figured out. The more I learn about our body, the more I realize we don't know much.

3. Protein might be insulinogenic, but please don't act like it is insulinogenic like carbs are. Because it isn't. And when you look at the research that has been published, it is actually only certain amino acids (amino acids = building blocks of protein). The following article that was published showed that only:

Quote:
"L-arginine, L-lysine, L-alanine, L-proline, L-leucine and L-glutamine acutely stimulate insulin secretion from mouse islets and INS-1E cells in a dose- and glucose-dependent manner, whereas DL-homocysteine inhibits insulin release."

Source: Dose- and Glucose-Dependent Effects of Amino Acids on Insulin Secretion from Isolated Mouse Islets and Clonal INS-1E Beta-Cells
http://www.soc-bdr.org/rds/archive/5/4_ ... ex_en.html

So a lot of this insulin secretion (even with proteins) is in a dose and glucose dependent relationship. There are also amino acids (proteins) that inhibit insulin secretion.

Here is another published research article:

Quote:
the effects of amino acids are specific, in that basal rates of protein synthesis are unaffected, only certain amino acids influence insulin action, and amino acids fail to alter insulin binding or the insulin-responsive glucose transport system.


Source: Amino acid regulation of insulin action in isolated adipocytes. Selective ability of amino acids to enhance both insulin sensitivity and maximal insulin responsiveness of the protein synthesis system.
http://www.jbc.org/content/264/4/2037.short


4. "ketosis burns ketones, not necessarily fat cells." Ketone bodies are produced from the breakdown of fatty acids in the mitochondria of the liver. Fatty acids are from the breakdown of lipids. You can't get ketone bodies without the breakdown of fatty acids.

The whole biochemical process of getting to ketone bodies use is through periods of lack of caloric intake, carb restrictive diets, starvation, prolonged intense exercise (you deplete glucose/glycogen stores) and in untreated diabetes type I. When carb intake is restricted, it lowers the blood sugar level, thereby also lowering the insulin level. As the insulin levels drops and when energy is needed and there is no glucose or glycogen on store, the fatty acids from fat cells enter the bloodstream and are metabolized in the biochemical process of beta-oxidation. Here is the biochemical chart of it:

Image

It is that product, acetyl-coA that is then used in the Krebs Cycle aka citric acid cycle.

Image


5. "Most civilians" Well this is WW and more specifically the training sub-forum of WW. We aren't most civilians and the fact that we bike, care about our fitness and dietary intake means we are in a very small subgroup. While we might not have the natural talent or genetic gifts that some ProTour riders have, we are still in that small subset of the general population that they are.

6. Listen to Dr. James Morton of Team Sky, in the video I posted. Team Sky still does fasted training rides. I have a friend that has worked for them and told me this much. I know other ProTour teams do as well. Read some of Dr. Morton's published work from his research he has done in his position at Liverpool John Moores University. This type of training is still actively used in pro cycling.

https://youtu.be/jFxb2wpvgxk

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:49 am 
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KWalker wrote:
Yes, it is a hack because your respiratory quotient is determined by overall dietary composition over a longer period of time. If you spend 3 days riding fasted with zero carbs and get into ketosis, then 3 days riding with normal carbs, you generally arrive at the same respiratory quotient and burn the same amount of substrates. You might metabolize FFA differently, which are not equal to nor easily liberated from adipose fat when cortisol is high as it is during endurance exercise.


No one has said spend 3 days riding in a fasted state with zero carbs in this thread. No ProTour team with a proficient team physician or nutrition specialists would allow or advocate for a "spend 3 days riding fasted with zero carbs." Who in the world would even think about that?

What has been said by a few in this thread is that an occasional fasted training ride (glucose naive i.e. no recent intake of glucose for the last 8-12 hours) can have a benefit for your training if you do it a few times a week. No one has talked about doing a ketogenic diet. You should have been able to pick that up if you followed this thread.

KWalker wrote:
Also, why do people think increased fat oxidation is better? Fat requires more oxygen to produce ATP, so increased oxidation does not mean more energy turnover in the mitochondria.


Why is fat oxidization better? Because regardless of how fit you are, your body carries a bunch of it on itself. If you can tap into that and use that on your rides, all the better in terms of energy utilization. You also benefit by shifting the crossover point (graph below) and increasing your VO2.

Image


While fat does require more oxygen, you are also getting 9 kilocalories per gram of fat and carbohydrates only provide about 4 kilocalories per gram. By shifting the crossover point (from graph above), you are able to rely more on the fat first and save the glucose/glycogen for a later more important part. That is very important for cycling and other endurance sports. Enhance fat oxidation is very important as it helps preserve carbohydrate stores.

Here is a good PowerPoint presentation that is worth looking at to better understand why metabolic efficiency training i.e. trying to shift metabolic efficiency crossover point is important in cycling. It was put together by Dina Griffin from eNRG Performance in Colorado.

http://www.eatrightarizona.org/docs/201 ... ffin-1.pdf

Here is a published research article that also speaks about lipid utilization and how training allows the athlete to increase lipid utilization as energy source even as excise intensities increase:

Balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the “crossover” concept
http://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/I ... ssover.pdf

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Last edited by 53x12 on Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:53 am 
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Kind of hesitant to reply, given the weight of references being thrown around, but I thought I'd share my experiences - all entirely empirical and not backed up by any data of any sort whatsoever. A couple of years ago, I tried fasted training (espresso first...) twice a week(ish) for my 40 minute / 20k commute to work over a period of a couple of months- I usually ride relatively gently on the way in, chuck in another 10k on the way home and put some more structured stuff in then - by the by, just so you know how this fits in.

I found that almost regardless of how gently I rode in the morning, I found myself significantly fatigued for the rest of the day - I'd be shovelling some breakfast down as soon as I got to work, but whether that was five minutes or 20 minutes after I arrived, I still felt like I was physically and mentally swimming through glue, and my afternoon rides felt a lot harder. I didn't experience any great weight loss or see my body fat dropped at all, and I frequently felt - after a work day - unable to complete the harder parts of my training in the afternoon. My diet is pretty high-carb / low fat, and at that time I wasn't able to do any long rides on the weekend because of other life commitments. Read into this what you will, if anything at all...just my experience.


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