Muscle Weight Loss desireable?

[han1337]

I am currently having a hard time keeping up with the climbers in my races.
(I do nearly only races with longer hills, where you WILL get dropped if you cant hold 5-5.6 w/kg for the duration of the climb - 10 to 15 minutes)

I have a very good kick, but wont be able to use it, because I will be either be dropped or too damaged to do anything after the climb.


Beeing 66 kg at the moment with an FTP of 310 and a body fat percentage of 7-8%
(Withings Scale tells me that I am 6.7 percent - but from the looks of it more the 7-8% range..)

This means, that I can choose between loosing some muscle or staying where I am.
There is not much fat to loose, at least not without loosing some muscle too.

My body has only so much left to give in terms of FTP - maybe 320-325w max when in peak form,
with my current training regimen.


Do you guys think its worth to loose some muscle in an attempt to get to a better w/kg?
Or just keep trying to improve the absolute FTP and keep the muscle mass?

Edit: forgot my height, 1.72 m
BMI of 22.31

[wop]

If you can get your FTP to 325 watt without gaining weight, your 20 minute power should be somewhere around 340 watt. That's 5,15 w/kg at 66kg, meaning you won't get dropped.

However, you still could get pretty damaged and not be able to perform your pretty good kick.

Best option in my opinion would be compete in races without 10/15 minute climbs. If that's not possible, I would try to improve FTP first since it is very hard to lose muscle mass without losing the power you put out in that kick of yours.

[MattSoutherden]

What's your body shape? Do you have arms like Chris Froome? Do you do much upper body work off the bike? You may be able to drop some upper body mass by cutting gym work down/out. But if you're already a GC rider shape, then trying to drop body mass quickly will have a huge impact on your training and recovery.

[han1337]

If you can get your FTP to 325 watt without gaining weight, your 20 minute power should be somewhere around 340 watt. That's 5,15 w/kg at 66kg, meaning you won't get dropped.

However, you still could get pretty damaged and not be able to perform your pretty good kick.

Best option in my opinion would be compete in races without 10/15 minute climbs. If that's not possible, I would try to improve FTP first since it is very hard to lose muscle mass without losing the power you put out in that kick of yours.

340 W for 20 min are possible (good leg days only) but reacting to attacks after this kind of surge is not possible.
I will try anyway for sure.

Also the downhill that comes afterwards is not very enjoyable after just beeing on the absolute limit for 20 minutes.
Its a bit hard to concentrate.


There are nearly no races without longer climbs here in Austria, so I have to harden the *f##k* up ^^

What's your body shape? Do you have arms like Chris Froome? Do you do much upper body work off the bike? You may be able to drop some upper body mass by cutting gym work down/out. But if you're already a GC rider shape, then trying to drop body mass quickly will have a huge impact on your training and recovery.

My body shape is not GC shape, I am already very skinny but have a bit of muscle, maybe that is the problem.
Upper body is already less than the legs in comparison, but might be able to take this one step further.

I dont do any upper body work except of some garden work where I will use my upper body.
But I also tried to keep my protein intake high till now.

Maybe I should skip most of the protein for a while, go long for some long distance rides and hope that he useless muscles go away.

[Rick]

I guess that for bike racing specifically, any muscle that is not propelling the bike is "wasted".
Looking at overall general health and long-term development might dictate a different answer.
Since I am naturally overweight, my "training" is dominated by the monomaniacal imperative to "lose weight".
I would love to find an "optimum weight" and control it to stay there, but my experience is that skinnier is just always faster. Maybe if I were naturally mahatma-gandhi-style skinny I would see it differently.

[RyanH]

That's a lot of power. Are you racing top level?

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[KWalker]

Your limiter is not muscle mass, it's lack of power. Hell, you could gain 2kg of muscle and if it got you a higher 20-30min peak power it would be worth it. I hate to say it but w/kg does not often win climbing races below the pro level. If you look at domestic racing in the U.S. there are lots of guys on the cat 1 and national level that are not all that light and do well on or win climbing stages. What people tend to forget is that with pros their watts are already really high and generally not super far off of one another so weight becomes a variable that is easier to manipulate. For amateurs it is the opposite.

I'd say you are limited by your genetics and/or your training. A 325w FTP wouldn't get you that far in even most climb-y cat 1 races in the United States as the guys that win those generally have FTPs much higher- often 350 and above at the same weight you are at. Locally, a few guys that weigh in the 155-165 range have 380-420w FTPs. This helps them on climbs and also on the flats coming into the climbs. At pack speed they might be riding at 75%-80% of FTP in some scenarios where you are closer to 90% and already on the rivet.

[boysa]

Great reply, Karsten. Too often we are looking in the wrong place, aiming for "marginal gains," when there is still plenty of low-hanging fruit. Not that adding watts is easy, but a better goal than worrying about how much every morsel of food weighs. (This is a reminder to myself, as well!)

[RyanH]

Locally, a few guys that weigh in the 155-165 range have 380-420w FTPs.

Um...you guys have a bunch of Bradley Wiggins up north? Wiggins at 155ish can push 430w for an hour and you're claiming that locally a few guys can push that too? I ride with a Cat 1 that places well in Socal at 155 that can push 350-360 for 40 minutes, but an FTP that's higher than that, holy smokes.

[KWalker]

Wiggins pushed around 460 in the London 2012 TT at a supposed 155. He's pushed around 455 on climbs at the same weight. And yes, a few guys up here do ride nation-wide on national level teams. If you look at elite nats last year Nor Cal guys were pretty dominant. There are two riders whose weights and thresholds I know- one is 155-160 depending on the day with a 380w FTP. Another is ~165 and is a former domestic pro and is around 400-410 right now.

Another thing to consider for the OP is that very few races actually have climbs longer than 10min. In the U.S. there are probably a dozen, maybe slightly more. Of those verrrrry few have a climb longer than 20min. At that point pure 20-30min peak power and a decent weight is going to matter a hell of a lot since riders are not doing 2-4 alpine passes in a stage and then smothering each other up the last 30+min climb. Even Phil Gaimon mentioned this aspect of domestic racing making it difficult to transition to and from the World Tour as it changes the dynamic of racing so much.

[Dr.Dos]

The best amateurs in Germany should hover in the 5.1-5.3W/kg area. A few of these guys were good enough to cause quite a bit of damage in the Intelligentsia Cup 2015. None of them is lighter than 72kg, which appears to be the sweet spot for our type of racing. And they won't get dropped in UCI 1.2 races with decent amounts of climbing (e.g. in Belgium), either.

The key appears to be to produce this wattage each and every day and remain fresh for explosiveness. I know a lot of people who perform great one day and getting crushed on the next. So if you are being dropped, it may be time to head for the next level for the coming year. You're only as good as your bad days

[han1337]

Wiggins pushed around 460 in the London 2012 TT at a supposed 155. He's pushed around 455 on climbs at the same weight. And yes, a few guys up here do ride nation-wide on national level teams. If you look at elite nats last year Nor Cal guys were pretty dominant. There are two riders whose weights and thresholds I know- one is 155-160 depending on the day with a 380w FTP. Another is ~165 and is a former domestic pro and is around 400-410 right now.

Another thing to consider for the OP is that very few races actually have climbs longer than 10min. In the U.S. there are probably a dozen, maybe slightly more. Of those verrrrry few have a climb longer than 20min. At that point pure 20-30min peak power and a decent weight is going to matter a hell of a lot since riders are not doing 2-4 alpine passes in a stage and then smothering each other up the last 30+min climb. Even Phil Gaimon mentioned this aspect of domestic racing making it difficult to transition to and from the World Tour as it changes the dynamic of racing so much.

We have longer climbs than 10 min in every race - and longer climbs than 20 min in most races.

The 10 minute climb would be more than enough to drop the heavier riders.

But good, if you have an 380 W FTP, you can afford to be heavier.


What I always ask myself when looking at such high FTPs is if they are possible for a smaller rider like me, or if only bigger (height) guys can achieve this?

Do you know guys at my height with a 380 W FTP? (1.72 m)

From what ive seen the smaller guys cant just put some muscle on and have ftp like a bigger rider.
There are some given limitations.

They might be able to sprint better, but not have higher FTPs.


And that is why I ask myself if i should rather get rid of the relative extra weight that i have.



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[ddj5300]

[ddj5300]

[KWalker]

at 7%-8% bodyfat and that height if you're measurements are already right you are really lean. If you catabolize tissue you can cause various negative physiological changes as well including a reduction in circulating blood lactate and clearance thereof, possible reductions in vo2 max, and you'll risk losing raw power.

I don't know what you consider "heavier". On a 20min climb a 165lb-170lb rider with a 365w FTP has the same w/kg and will come into that climb far more fresh considering that on any other section of the course they likely can descend slightly faster and the same pack pace is at a much lower % of FTP. A raw PB is only one part of climbing fast. In domestic racing looking at a guy like Rob Britton, who is a pretty tall/large rider and can climb longer climbs almost as well as the pure climbers, who still have much higher raw power than you do.

Unfortunately you have what becomes a very frustrating body type for amateur racing- too small to be a power rider, too big to be a pure climber. You need to learn to race best with what you got and maybe do things you don't think you're built for- snap in bunch sprints, TTs, maybe short anaerobic finishes etc.