Muscle Weight Loss desireable?

[han1337]

at 7%-8% bodyfat and that height if you're measurements are already right you are really lean. If you catabolize tissue you can cause various negative physiological changes as well including a reduction in circulating blood lactate and clearance thereof, possible reductions in vo2 max, and you'll risk losing raw power.

I don't know what you consider "heavier". On a 20min climb a 165lb-170lb rider with a 365w FTP has the same w/kg and will come into that climb far more fresh considering that on any other section of the course they likely can descend slightly faster and the same pack pace is at a much lower % of FTP. A raw PB is only one part of climbing fast. In domestic racing looking at a guy like Rob Britton, who is a pretty tall/large rider and can climb longer climbs almost as well as the pure climbers, who still have much higher raw power than you do.

Unfortunately you have what becomes a very frustrating body type for amateur racing- too small to be a power rider, too big to be a pure climber. You need to learn to race best with what you got and maybe do things you don't think you're built for- snap in bunch sprints, TTs, maybe short anaerobic finishes etc.

So you think it is possible to increase vo2max/FTP by having more muscle mass?

That is essentially the big question.

Most people I have seen can reach their potential of FTP without having much muscle mass. (not sprint /10s power of course)
I imagine if froome had 10kg more muscle mass, he would not be able to put out more power, because there are other limiters.




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[beeatnik]

Locally, a few guys that weigh in the 155-165 range have 380-420w FTPs.

Um...you guys have a bunch of Bradley Wiggins up north? Wiggins at 155ish can push 430w for an hour and you're claiming that locally a few guys can push that too? I ride with a Cat 1 that places well in Socal at 155 that can push 350-360 for 40 minutes, but an FTP that's higher than that, holy smokes.

Guessing he does Nichols.

Does he ride the Word Famous Montrose or the World Famous Rose Bowl?

[jamesbass]

I know 2 guys who are close to 6 w/kg for 15-20 minutes but they still get dropped in the hilly races because they're tiny and their FTP is not enough to hang on the descents and in the wind. They recover much quicker after a climb but the guys with higher FTPs can pedal tempo down a descent and those guys have to push FTP to keep up.

[KWalker]

at 7%-8% bodyfat and that height if you're measurements are already right you are really lean. If you catabolize tissue you can cause various negative physiological changes as well including a reduction in circulating blood lactate and clearance thereof, possible reductions in vo2 max, and you'll risk losing raw power.

I don't know what you consider "heavier". On a 20min climb a 165lb-170lb rider with a 365w FTP has the same w/kg and will come into that climb far more fresh considering that on any other section of the course they likely can descend slightly faster and the same pack pace is at a much lower % of FTP. A raw PB is only one part of climbing fast. In domestic racing looking at a guy like Rob Britton, who is a pretty tall/large rider and can climb longer climbs almost as well as the pure climbers, who still have much higher raw power than you do.

Unfortunately you have what becomes a very frustrating body type for amateur racing- too small to be a power rider, too big to be a pure climber. You need to learn to race best with what you got and maybe do things you don't think you're built for- snap in bunch sprints, TTs, maybe short anaerobic finishes etc.

So you think it is possible to increase vo2max/FTP by having more muscle mass?

That is essentially the big question.

Most people I have seen can reach their potential of FTP without having much muscle mass. (not sprint /10s power of course)
I imagine if froome had 10kg more muscle mass, he would not be able to put out more power, because there are other limiters.




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I don't think anyone can answer your question regarding vo2 and muscle mass, however, Alan Couzens has a lot of information on his site around that theory and believes in it and recently more research has been done into protein and catabolism in endurance athletes in a focus to preserve lean body mass during training and/or weight loss.

Froome doesn't need mass. His threshold is already somewhere in the area of 430-440watts most likely and 1-2kg of weight loss between the base and race period is all he needs to have that extra edge on climbs.

[han1337]

Just an update:
I have been doing high carb low protein low fat for a while now. (Also vegan)

Muscle loss is progressing .. Down to 62.7 kg -
Ftp is 316 meanwhile - so a small increase

I have not seen any power loss while the muscle loss is definitely noticeable.

The hillclimbs where great -
I really hope i can find some more ftp watts till next season.


From my perspective it looks like i dont need much muscle weight to perform well -

i wonder if i can continue to gain power while getting skinnier still - aiming for 61 kg



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[Tabe]

Just an update:
I have been doing high carb low protein low fat for a while now. (Also vegan)

Muscle loss is progressing .. Down to 62.7 kg -
Ftp is 316 meanwhile - so a small increase

I have not seen any power loss while the muscle loss is definitely noticeable.

The hillclimbs where great -
I really hope i can find some more ftp watts till next season.


From my perspective it looks like i dont need much muscle weight to perform well -

i wonder if i can continue to gain power while getting skinnier still - aiming for 61 kg



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I'd say don't push down your weight blindly. There is many things not spoken here. Are you junior, adult, masters racer? And your perfomance profile in overall, how much is your 5 min level? If your FTP is lower than 0.85 from 5min level then you have job to do with it. Vo2max and anaerobics have quite a bit to do with climbing in racing situations when there's a rythm changes below and above FTP. Both rolling and climbing profile training should cover these. You can't cover it just with being light and having good or even excellent ftp.

[ophiravina]

Just an update:
I have been doing high carb low protein low fat for a while now. (Also vegan)

Muscle loss is progressing .. Down to 62.7 kg -
Ftp is 316 meanwhile - so a small increase

I have not seen any power loss while the muscle loss is definitely noticeable.

The hillclimbs where great -
I really hope i can find some more ftp watts till next season.


From my perspective it looks like i dont need much muscle weight to perform well -

i wonder if i can continue to gain power while getting skinnier still - aiming for 61 kg



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great for you I went 80\10\10 vegan a year ago and also saw the same improvment. My height is 1.87 meters and I was 72 kilos with 327 ftp at november. I planned to pick at july, got to 65.5 kilos at the day of the national tt competion and made it to 7th place. I dont have a power meter on my tt bike but I think I had a pretty good wattage . my ftp now is 320 watt and I weight 67-68 kilos. most of my days are even lower than 80\10\10 actually. if I train a lot and burn a lot of calories it even comes around 85-88 precent of the calories from carbs becouse I dont want to it more than 90 grams of protein a day. 70 grams is is usually the sweetspot for me

wish you good luck

[jamesbass]

Just to add another data point to the above theme, on 90% carbs from just rice/veg/fruit I am now equaling my lowest ever weight from a few years back and have 20% more power at FTP. Last time I was this low I had starved myself considerably for short 1-2 minute hillclimbs, disregarding FTP. The carbohydrate-focused way really is the best balance between losing weight long-term and being able to fuel enough to hit & maintain the numbers.

There is a guy local to me who has been Vegan for years and he has veins popping out everywhere. He got a DEXA scan and measured 4.5%. He claims that most people have loads of fat to lose and I believe him. Until your abs are showing naturally and your arm veins stick out as much as the back of your hands, you can lose more fat safely. This is called vascularity and everyone is different but, when I took the starvation/calorie counting approach, I was at the same weight as now but was nowhere near as vascular/skeletal.

Not sure what's going on but it works for the world's best athletes so I'm going to keep it up.

[han1337]

Just to add another data point to the above theme, on 90% carbs from just rice/veg/fruit I am now equaling my lowest ever weight from a few years back and have 20% more power at FTP. Last time I was this low I had starved myself considerably for short 1-2 minute hillclimbs, disregarding FTP. The carbohydrate-focused way really is the best balance between losing weight long-term and being able to fuel enough to hit & maintain the numbers.

There is a guy local to me who has been Vegan for years and he has veins popping out everywhere. He got a DEXA scan and measured 4.5%. He claims that most people have loads of fat to lose and I believe him. Until your abs are showing naturally and your arm veins stick out as much as the back of your hands, you can lose more fat safely. This is called vascularity and everyone is different but, when I took the starvation/calorie counting approach, I was at the same weight as now but was nowhere near as vascular/skeletal.

Not sure what's going on but it works for the world's best athletes so I'm going to keep it up.

Good to hear your data point too .. I believe there is something to this diet, at least for us cyclists.

I need to make a dexa scan, but I think that I am actually at a similar level right now, like 5%
My scale tells me sub 3% now.. which is clearly wrong.. but it shows the trend, which did go down very rapidly..

Have not seen any performance decrease till now.
I have PBs now in all timeframes except shorter durations than 2 minutes.

I'd say don't push down your weight blindly. There is many things not spoken here. Are you junior, adult, masters racer? And your perfomance profile in overall, how much is your 5 min level? If your FTP is lower than 0.85 from 5min level then you have job to do with it. Vo2max and anaerobics have quite a bit to do with climbing in racing situations when there's a rythm changes below and above FTP. Both rolling and climbing profile training should cover these. You can't cover it just with being light and having good or even excellent ftp.

@Age, I am 28 years, I have been riding for 4 years now, the last 2 years with 10h+/week and a coach
Before I was doing a bit of weightlifting other than that, only sitting around all day.


@5 min to FTP Ratio
My highest ever recorded data was at a hillclimb in which I blew up: 385 Watts for 7 Minutes

Maybe 5 min could be possible with 5 watts more? I have not done a 5 Minute all out lately.
85% of 390 would be be 330 Watt FTP theoretical maximum with current Vo2Max.. I am not there yet


But really ... I dont believe that it is needed for me to be fat to reach a higher level of performance.
I think that simply is not true.

@tabe,
I understand your concerns about rolling profile and you are probably right.
But until now I think that he advantage is bigger than the potential loss, at least in the terrain here.
Sometimes you just have give things a shot and learn.. even if it fails.
Getting the mass back again is not impossible.




From what I have read a plant based diet clearly helps bloodflow.
The guy you mentioned and his vascularity also seem like they fit into the picture.
Better bloodflow could possibly helps endurance athletes a lot

I feel refreshed a lot faster when eating lot of nutrient dense plant foods and nearly no fat.
I can get away with much less food and feel better still.

Before I had to eat huge amounts of food to feel alive after hard sessions .. (200 TSS with IF of 0.8+)


I am now at 61.9 kg and my FTP is probably a bit higher again .. will retest after my season is over.

My Results in the hillclimbs have been good, a few placings in top 10 and even top 5.

I hope that there wont be any sudden drops in power soon, if that does not happen, I will probably stick to the diet.

great for you I went 80\10\10 vegan a year ago and also saw the same improvment. My height is 1.87 meters and I was 72 kilos with 327 ftp at november. I planned to pick at july, got to 65.5 kilos at the day of the national tt competion and made it to 7th place. I dont have a power meter on my tt bike but I think I had a pretty good wattage . my ftp now is 320 watt and I weight 67-68 kilos. most of my days are even lower than 80\10\10 actually. if I train a lot and burn a lot of calories it even comes around 85-88 precent of the calories from carbs becouse I dont want to it more than 90 grams of protein a day. 70 grams is is usually the sweetspot for me

wish you good luck

Very extreme weight for your height, must have saved a lot of cda
I dont watch the ratio .. I just eat plant foods and try not to go overboard with the nuts and avocados, or anything fatty..
Also I dont eat any bread or pasta, only rice as a strach atm, dont know yet if I can keep that up.

I probably need to get some more protein in, maybe add some more quinoa or beans, to be able to build up some muscles again if needed.

How do you get so much protein a day?

[xena]

I have veins on my arms popping out but I'm not 3% bodyfat.
IMO that's way to low. Lean and healthy but not to the extreme.

[han1337]

I have veins on my arms popping out but I'm not 3% bodyfat.
IMO that's way to low. Lean and healthy but not to the extreme.

I think that the veins do not necessarily say anything about the bodyfat percentage ..
At least they wont pop up at a certain number.

[xena]

That's my point exactly. Some people seem to be more vascular without being under 4/5 % bodyfat.
Bodybuilders can be 12% fat and look ripped.

[han1337]

That's my point exactly. Some people seem to be more vascular without being under 4/5 % bodyfat.
Bodybuilders can be 12% fat and look ripped.

Also when you are dehydrated and then eat something sugary and have a drink .. your veins will pop out. (mine do .. at least in the legs..)
But I still believe that veganism helps your bloodflow .. even if the looks dont tell it all.

[xena]

That's my point exactly. Some people seem to be more vascular without being under 4/5 % bodyfat.
Bodybuilders can be 12% fat and look ripped.

Also when you are dehydrated and then eat something sugary and have a drink .. your veins will pop out. (mine do .. at least in the legs..)
But I still believe that veganism helps your bloodflow .. even if the looks dont tell it all.

For sure. I mean drink some water and your veins will almost disappear.
I'm not a vegan but avoiding the heavy meat and dairy is IMO beneficial.
I tend to get protein from a shake or chicken (not anabolic )
I do eat a lot of veg
I would go vegan if i could but I always get the calling for a bacon sandwich or a burger

[han1337]

That's my point exactly. Some people seem to be more vascular without being under 4/5 % bodyfat.
Bodybuilders can be 12% fat and look ripped.

Also when you are dehydrated and then eat something sugary and have a drink .. your veins will pop out. (mine do .. at least in the legs..)
But I still believe that veganism helps your bloodflow .. even if the looks dont tell it all.

For sure. I mean drink some water and your veins will almost disappear.
I'm not a vegan but avoiding the heavy meat and dairy is IMO beneficial.
I tend to get protein from a shake or chicken (not anabolic )
I do eat a lot of veg
I would go vegan if i could but I always get the calling for a bacon sandwich or a burger

I understand you bro .. it is just inconvenient.

It was just meant to be an experiment at first.
But I just feel a lot better now.

And I am too competitive to give up an advantage


Yeah chicken and shake is easy to ramp up the Protein ... they also have lots of lysine, which is very rare to find in vegan foods.
The missing lysine is probably a big reason for the weight loss and catabolism or missing anabolism with being vegan.

I will have to find out what that means in the long run - maybe its bad - maybe not .. sometimes you just have to find out by yourself.