More muscles / weight, more power?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

Moderator: Moderator Team

Stammer
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:10 pm

by Stammer

Hi all

I’m a new here but a long time lurker. I'd like to ask all the experienced riders here whether gaining weight is the best way to increase FTP as I believe more muscles means more torque and strength?

Here’s the background:

I am a light guy at 121lbs / 55kg at 173cm
FTP 20 mins was tested at 243 watts, subtracting 5% from it would be 230 watts.

W/kg on a flat FTP testing is: 4.20w/kg (Tested on flat course, I believe I can score higher FTP on a climb but haven’t done it yet). I can drop 2-3kg more but not sure whether it is the right thing to do.

Weekly session looks like this:
2x20’ threshold / sometimes tempo,
Strength Endurance intervals,
40/20s to maintain the anaerobic power,
and a groupride (I usually chose between long endurance ride (lots of high cadence work as I'm a spinner type), and shortish but fast groupride depending on the mood)
2 days off / recovery in a week

3 weeks blocks, 1 week rest/recovery.

So the question is, will I improves my power a lot by going to gym and do some leg works at the costs of weight increase? Or is my Strength endurance intervals (5x4’, 3x10’ of grinding in big gear) is enough?

Target to achieve 280-290 watts FTP in 1 year of consistent training.

Thanks in advance.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
Tinea Pedis
Posts: 8615
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Contact:

by Tinea Pedis

Stammer wrote:as I believe more muscles means more torque and strength?

Nope. Not linked.

Many strength/resistance training threads on here discussing precisely what you've asked. And debunking your above proposition.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Stammer
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:10 pm

by Stammer

Thanks for the reply. So the only chance to increase more power is to try to increase the cardio threshold capacity?

No correlation on strength? I believe the strength comes from muscles hence more muscles = more strength, hence more weight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
Tapeworm
Posts: 2585
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am

by Tapeworm

Have a look at this thread, for example:- viewtopic.php?f=8&t=132652

And some fun visuals for extreme ends of the spectrum:-
Robert Forstemann.
Image

Chris Froome.
Image

Mark Cavendish.
Image

Tony Martin.
Image

One of these things is not like the other.

So depending on the type of racing/performance you are targeting you may wish to think about the premises of muscle size=aerobic power production. That is not to say training in the gym may not be beneficial (see the linked thread), but rather a common factor in endurance cyclists is that they really, really do not have much muscle mass (even the "heavy" sprinters).

Except maybe this guy:-
Image
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

Marin
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

Think about it, your ftp uses nowhere near your maximum strength.

It uses a small fraction of the force you could exert on the pedals, and the ftp value is determined by your endurance, i.e. how long you can sustain that fraction.

User avatar
Rick
Posts: 2034
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm

by Rick

The illusion is strong, because at any given instant, it seems like you could go a little faster if you could just pound the pedals a little harder. But in my own experience I have spent many winters lifting weights, and I always get stronger. But I only get better at lifting weights. OK, maybe my 20 sec. sprint is a little better at the beginning of each spring, but over any practical cycling distance/time it seems to make no difference. By contrast, losing weight, even to the point of feeling weak and fragile all the time, seems to work miracles as soon as you are on the bike.
After a few years I just started noticing that my best seasons were ones that I did little or no weight lifting, and I also noticed that in most road race events the placings go exactly in order of how skinny the competitors are.
I still lift during the winters, but only because there isn't much else to do. I don't expect it to help cycling.

Stammer
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:10 pm

by Stammer

Well do you guys agree that heavier rider produce more absolute watts? 70kg rider may produce 300-350watts and having 5w/kg.

Is there a bigger rider that produce only 230watts ftp?

I'm not denying the facts that skinny guys can win races, and big muscular track guy can't win certain races, I'm just asking if I can increase my watts by increasing my muscle mass / weight.

The powermeter uses strain gauges which measures torque (let say on the crank). Thus I'm assuming the heavier and stronger my legs, the more I could churn out those extra watts.

Or have I misunderstood the whole concept wrong? :p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Marin
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

Yes, more absolute power. However, this wouldn't make you faster as the gains are cancelled out by the weight.

jimborello
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 5:07 am

by jimborello

Damn, 55 kilos at 1.73??? Thats extremely skinny! almost 18 kilos lighter with the same height than me. Having said that you will benefit from losing weight but not from losing muscle. I recently lost 6 kilos and they were all fat, bringing me down to 11-12% and I have been flying on the bike and on the run (sorry Im a triathlete). My FTP is also in the 4.3 w/kilo range. My advise; check your body composition and see if you can gain some muscle while keeping your body fat down, or if you have a high body fat % (which I doubt because of your weight), switch that body fat to muscle, and there the gym could help a bit.

User avatar
Rick
Posts: 2034
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm

by Rick

...and/or just build cycling-specific strength by doing some very short, very high-pedal-force exercises: "tractor pulls" Big gear sprints, short explosive uphills, etc...

There is still about an order of magnitude difference in time between what a cyclist considers "short" and how long a typical weight-lifting set lasts.

kulivontot
Posts: 1163
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 7:28 pm

by kulivontot

When you figure it out, let me know. I feel like I'm the only other skinny guy on this board with an ftp <250w

drchull
Posts: 376
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:38 pm

by drchull

More weight is more momentum but harder to accelerate. Raw power can win a sprint but in North american style crits you are accelerating all that weight from every corner. You really need to learn to corner very well as a bigger guy or that sprint is worn out by the finish.

Weight has benefits in a few instances. TTs it is not as much of a deterrent as is typically flat, little acceleration and raw sustained power is what matters. Classics style riders often are bigger, partly they don't get as beat up and bounced around on the rough surfaces as much. Past that there is no benefit to the weight.

I hope I don't need to say how much worse it is when the road turns up, this is after all weight weenies.

Power:weight. Work on the power on the bike, keep the weight low unless you are a specialized rider like a track sprinter or TT specialist. Even then being as light as you can to produce maximal power is the best equation.

Stammer
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:10 pm

by Stammer

Good info. Thanks for the insights guys. Anyway how do yo determine your optimum race weight? Or it's all depends on the type of races?

I remember wiggo increased his weight for Paris-Roubaix, that means compromising his w/kg, no?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez
Posts: 2147
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:21 pm
Location: around Paris

by Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez

W/kg is good for climbing.

In Paris-Roubaix, the key is absolute power and be able to replicate it x times (and skills on cobbles obviously, even more if it is muddy), not /weight ratio.

Wiggo tried to increase his absolute power on short durations, with weight not being a factor.
Last edited by Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez on Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tapeworm
Posts: 2585
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am

by Tapeworm

"It depends" is the clear determining factor. What racing do you do? Want racing do you *want* to do? What racing do you enjoy?
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply