More muscles / weight, more power?

[Rick]

I agree. But I am just pointing out it is not as clear as some seem to think it is.
Also, if the assumption is that "it does not alter the scheduled aerobic training", then that must mean it is simply adding MORE TIME TRAINING.
Since most people have a limited time resource, the question is whether to spend that additional time doing strength training or simply put in more aerobic training.

If you think the trend is clear enough, then go for it. I certainly don't know what the definitive answer is. The big irony is that if were were to search the archives of this forum you would find that a few years ago I was advocating for strength training and I was contradicted pretty vigorously by those who said the data was pretty clear that it wouldn't help my cycling.

Interesting thread on the subject:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=98294&hilit=lifting

[Tapeworm]

you need to consider the whole body of evidence not just one study.

The trend seems clear enough to warrant strength training if it does not alter the scheduled aerobic training.

Not really related to muscle mass in itself though.

This.

Not the case that weight training may not be of benefit, but rather the arbitrary adding of muscle mass should not be sought just for the sake of it. In the examples given previously, and snippets floating around dem interwebz is that the Sky boys (inc Wiggo) were doing weight/gym training, but as can be seen, not huge muscle mass there. How, what, when etc, that's the real question

For those that want more enlightening information look through the thread I linked to this one.

[RyanH]

While there may be merit to a strength training regimen, I think we all can agree that the most of the gains the OP is looking for is going to come from on the bike. If the OP wants to be able to "throw down on the flats" he's going to have to increase his FTP. On the other hand, if his only goal is to be able to pull at the front, 1-2 minute power may be more appropriate with an emphasis on recovery between efforts.

FTP improvement is a slow, long process unless you're unemployed or cycling employed. Especially a 21% jump. I'll caveat this by saying that I'm a terrible example of dedicated training, but from 2013 to 2014, my 20min power best only improved from 314 to 330w, but I was significantly more competitive in 2014. Most of that was due to my ability to have gas in the tank at key moments in the race.

The others on here will have more more useful input but I think we're digressing from what will get the OP to where he wants the soonest. Weight training may very well help, but I'd think it's going to play only a modest role in increasing FTP by 21%.

[devinci]

I agree. But I am just pointing out it is not as clear as some seem to think it is.
Also, if the assumption is that "it does not alter the scheduled aerobic training", then that must mean it is simply adding MORE TIME TRAINING.
Since most people have a limited time resource, the question is whether to spend that additional time doing strength training or simply put in more aerobic training.

If you think the trend is clear enough, then go for it. I certainly don't know what the definitive answer is. The big irony is that if were were to search the archives of this forum you would find that a few years ago I was advocating for strength training and I was contradicted pretty vigorously by those who said the data was pretty clear that it wouldn't help my cycling.

Interesting thread on the subject:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=98294&hilit=lifting

Science changes and evolves, so do we. The more I learned, the more I started to realise most forum are filled with "expert advices" that worth what they are, ie not much.

Dig the litterature, pull out your own conclusion based on evidence and avoid cherry picking science. This is my general advice if someone wants to make wise training decisions. There are so many ways to skin the training cat

[kulivontot]

Okay,
So let's approach this a little differently. There are those with significantly heavier builds who seem to be able to hold 300+ watts ftp with relatively little training by virtue of being larger. But their w/kg might not necessarily be higher. If we're claiming that muscle mass and ftp are somewhat independent of each other then why is there generally a correlation between higher weight and higher power? Is this attributed to the bulk of higher muscle mass, increased lung capacity, or greater blood volume of a larger person?
Is it even possible for someone of a smaller build to change their body composition in such a way as to make these types of performance gains? Or is this a case of "working with what you've got" to be the best that you can.

[Stammer]

^

My thoughts would be, by default a larger and trained cyclists (not fat) would be producing a higher torque (hence more power), as their aerobic capacity is also large in order to supply the oxygen demand of his/her large body.

There are however exceptions to those skinny little guy who is gifted genetically to have large aerobic capacity even though their body doesn't need that excess capacity as the larger guy.

Which came back to the question, will increasing mass results in an increase in our aerobic capacity naturally as it needs to cover the oxygen demands of the body?





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[Tapeworm]

Maybe, maybe not. You might increase your aerobic capacity with more muscle mass but not at the rate which will offset the relative penalty of the weight gain, ie: 60kgs with a 250 watt FTP (4.17w/kgs), then put on 5kgs but only gain 10 watts FTP (4w/kg). Absolute power has raised (fine for a flat TT, or maybe track) but you have effectively slowed yourself down on climbs.

What you are after is not muscular density, but mitochondrial density. This is why ultra skinny guys like Wiggins and Froome et al can produce huge wattage.

But I think you want to hit the gym and put on muscle mass regardless of the answers provided.

[ghostinthemachine]

Which came back to the question, will increasing mass results in an increase in our aerobic capacity naturally as it needs to cover the oxygen demands of the body?

Short answer. No.

[Stammer]

Found a similar question on 53x12 website and Dr Ferarri's answers.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=forum.thread&id=403





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[Svetty]

Self esteem is the elephant in the room here IMO. Bigger means better is a very basic human concept and is thus seductive.......

[DanW]

Regardless of the physiology involved, it is amusing how the grass is always greener. Most people would be over the moon to be your weight as the climbs are very often a decider. You don't see many 80kg guys winning Grand Tours or 50kg guys winning long flat Classics though. Race to your strengths I guess.

[LeDuke]

Those "bigger" guys that produce massive power? Yeah. They have long legs, correspondingly long femurs, and really aren't all that big.

[H0RSE]

Hi all

I’m a new here but a long time lurker. I'd like to ask all the experienced riders here whether gaining weight is the best way to increase FTP as I believe more muscles means more torque and strength?

Here’s the background:

I am a light guy at 121lbs / 55kg at 173cm
FTP 20 mins was tested at 243 watts, subtracting 5% from it would be 230 watts.

W/kg on a flat FTP testing is: 4.20w/kg (Tested on flat course, I believe I can score higher FTP on a climb but haven’t done it yet). I can drop 2-3kg more but not sure whether it is the right thing to do.

Weekly session looks like this:
2x20’ threshold / sometimes tempo,
Strength Endurance intervals,
40/20s to maintain the anaerobic power,
and a groupride (I usually chose between long endurance ride (lots of high cadence work as I'm a spinner type), and shortish but fast groupride depending on the mood)
2 days off / recovery in a week

3 weeks blocks, 1 week rest/recovery.

So the question is, will I improves my power a lot by going to gym and do some leg works at the costs of weight increase? Or is my Strength endurance intervals (5x4’, 3x10’ of grinding in big gear) is enough?

Target to achieve 280-290 watts FTP in 1 year of consistent training.

Thanks in advance.



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Firstly get off the phone ^^

Cycling and muscles are two terms which don't go together. You'd be surprised at how lean cycling muscles actually are. And you'd be surprised at how much fat and water is contained in the musculature of those who have bulked up and are thinking highly of their form.

Well, when you do start to develop form, the extra bulk is what helps you to go faster, longer. I stress on the term longer. The longer you can go the greater is the capacity in the short term to increase performance (namely speed). It's somewhat vague to say how big or how heavy, or weight and so forth. The weight must mean something.

But if you are training alot, resting alot, and where the resulting outcome of the exercise is in the development of form then you will start to gain weight. Although after an even longer duration in the same practical exercise the overall weight may then start to reduce again. By this time the capaity to ride longer and harder will also have increased.

It my view, total human output may in fact be a level playing field. Have a look at all of the hour records as a prime example. Whilst there's a moderate trend in results the margin between results is still minimal. The current record stands around the 54kph figure. You don't have wildly scaling figures like 40, 60, 80kph say. So how much output a human can produce appears to be limited. NB. The reason for the upwards trend is advancements in technique through better understanding and technology.

What you can do is focus on your riding, and make the so-called "marginal gains" in your performance and technique. Don't try to put on or lose weight. Eat a well balanced diet and get plenty of rest. I can assure you 90% of people fail not because of cycling is difficult (cycling is in fact the easiest of it) but because of the environment they're in curtails their mental powers to see it through. Don't try to rigidly stick to that regime forever. You need to cycle your regime whatever it may be.

[Stammer]

Gained 1kg, not sure it's because of fat or muscles (been hitting the gym for core and leg strength work). Found out that my 5min power increased and a bit more sustainable at higher power than before. But still the same on the 20min power.

WKO4 power curves trends suggested that major improvements from my training can be seen from the 5min power and below and not so much on the 5min and above. So the software suggested that the greatest training benefits I can gain is by doing a lot of HIIT instead of a SS (what baffles me is that my profile is shown as TTer) so yeah im a bit clueless now.








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