Usually about 78kg. Had dropped to 77kg in march so maybe wasnt eating quite enough calories then. The weight issue is a tough one. Loose weight and absolute power suffers which means performance in all the other races, which are more dependant on short interval power, will suffer.
I figure I'll keep trying to get as strong as I can. Then I'll aim to maintain it before I start trying to slowly drop weight. But to successfully maintain say 75kg, I think I would need to train over 20hrs a week, which I don't get time for... Or maybe achieve that over the next couple years.
Building while Racing..."normal recovery time" after a race?
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mr4fox wrote:In the 3 or 4 weeks preceding this bad week I have had less TSS, less training and less everything compared to the period if Feb through to easter. Despite getting significantly stronger back then I'm beginning to wonder if this slump is due to too much training all the way back at Easter(?). From what some of you are suggesting this may be the case.
It's normal to peak after about 8-10 weeks of hard training, be in your best form for a couple weeks, and then experience a decline. Ideally you'd want to rest at that point, get out of shape, then build again.
Regarding your comment about weight, you typically shouldn't experience a power loss unless you are excessively lean. <5% body fat. There could be a nutritional deficiency if that isn't the case and you are losing power. You don't need to ride 20hrs a week to get lean, but you do need to pay attention to what you eat.
formerly rruff...
I used to be much heavier. was chubby as a kid, then started weight training when i started university to loose the fat. i hit a low of 76.9kg in April and that's probably the lightest ive been since i was 13 or 14 years old. I seem to have stabilized around 78 for the last year or so. it was hard work initially but seems easier to maintain now. i think my body doesn't want to loose weight as i have to be hungry a lot of the time to drop weight. i can do it though but maintaining it is difficult and i don't want to risk getting sick. plus i need to fuel training. What works best for me is to drop maybe a kilo then try to maintain that for several months.
been a long time since ive done a body fat caliper test but id guess that im around the 10-12% fat mark now...just a guess though.
nest time i peak i will definitely take more rest, let things slide a bit and recover fully before trying to build again. i didn't know how long i was supposed to keep building. it seems like maybe 8 weeks of hard work then lots of rest might work better.
been a long time since ive done a body fat caliper test but id guess that im around the 10-12% fat mark now...just a guess though.
nest time i peak i will definitely take more rest, let things slide a bit and recover fully before trying to build again. i didn't know how long i was supposed to keep building. it seems like maybe 8 weeks of hard work then lots of rest might work better.
Hold on. Your FTP is 355? And you weigh 77kg? You should be literally riding away from everyone at the lower level. At U.S. elite nationals last year the lead group of 6 was riding up the "climb" at 5.5 for 5min, which you should be able to do easily given your stated 20min, but since you can't do that I'd start that at trying to improve vo2 max power. Something does not add up here. It has to be your race tactics at this point. On flat roads you have a great FTP and 20min. 77kg isn't super heavy either.
What doesn't add up? I didn't say I couldn't handle the efforts in the last race. I did handle them, and when the peleton slowed because they got tired after 90min I still managed to pull back 2 min on them after I stopped for the crash. They were obviously more tired than me.
5.5w/kg for 5 min is no problemin training or early in a race. Repeatedly and after a couple hours of racing I doubt I could hold it. We haven't had any 5min climbs in a race yet so I don't know. The efforts I refereed to earlier form myblast race were more like 5.5-6.5w/kg for up to 3 or 4min. That gets pretty tough after say 90min... Which is when the crash occurred.
Also as I tried to say before I'm not racing at a lower level. We dont hace different levels here. Im racing against everyone and anyveryone that travels to the same race. As long as they're not a pro and not a junior then theyre allowed to enter the race. So I'm racing against the best in this part of the country at leas, as well as some of the more eager from other parts of the country. But I'm not in the most populated part of the country so I dare say the competition would be a bit tougher in Oslo or Stavanger (Alexander kristoffs club is in Stavanger).
I'm curious why you say my race tactics are suspect....although I agree I haven't been trying to sheltering the pack too much simply because relative to the pack Ive felt I can afford to burn a few matches to hang around the front amd practice attacking. I've won my age division and got a 6th place. I pulled back 2minutes on a peleton while riding solo after stopping for 5 minutes to help at a crash....and still didn't come last. I do need to.learn how to break successfully. Still haven't managed that.
But none of that counts. The guy that won my A race last year had an ftp of around 5.5w/kg. The only thing I have over him is speed on the flat. I don't expect to win. But I want don't want to finish 10min behind him again
5.5w/kg for 5 min is no problemin training or early in a race. Repeatedly and after a couple hours of racing I doubt I could hold it. We haven't had any 5min climbs in a race yet so I don't know. The efforts I refereed to earlier form myblast race were more like 5.5-6.5w/kg for up to 3 or 4min. That gets pretty tough after say 90min... Which is when the crash occurred.
Also as I tried to say before I'm not racing at a lower level. We dont hace different levels here. Im racing against everyone and anyveryone that travels to the same race. As long as they're not a pro and not a junior then theyre allowed to enter the race. So I'm racing against the best in this part of the country at leas, as well as some of the more eager from other parts of the country. But I'm not in the most populated part of the country so I dare say the competition would be a bit tougher in Oslo or Stavanger (Alexander kristoffs club is in Stavanger).
I'm curious why you say my race tactics are suspect....although I agree I haven't been trying to sheltering the pack too much simply because relative to the pack Ive felt I can afford to burn a few matches to hang around the front amd practice attacking. I've won my age division and got a 6th place. I pulled back 2minutes on a peleton while riding solo after stopping for 5 minutes to help at a crash....and still didn't come last. I do need to.learn how to break successfully. Still haven't managed that.
But none of that counts. The guy that won my A race last year had an ftp of around 5.5w/kg. The only thing I have over him is speed on the flat. I don't expect to win. But I want don't want to finish 10min behind him again
You yourself have said your races are significantly high IF and that you were doubting hanging on some tougher courses. FTP is not a limiter here it seems. If you can't hold it later in a race there are other factors at play.
They sound suspect because I've seen winning files from really good domestic pros and cat 1 riders who don't have IFs that high even on selective courses. For example, a buddy of mine won a hilly cat 1 road race that was about 90 miles long. He was in the break all day and still did not manage an IF that high. The reason why is that he was super smart and rode very conservatively and tried to minimize his work, which is what most people attempt to do until it matters. His teammate, who was in the field, was riding his first category 2 road race and had both a higher IF and NP (they're roughly the same weight and abilities), but if you look at the file he rode quite stupidly. He was often too far back on the climbs so when the peloton crested and accelerated he had to momentarily dig a bit deeper. He also wasn't as far up enough when a crash happened and had to dig to bridge back on. Coming into the finish his power up the final climb was higher than the winner's, but he didn't crack the top 20 because he didn't start it far up enough.
I could keep giving countless examples, but most new riders do not know how to use their power. Regardless of who you're racing against this takes time to figure out. I got dropped a lot as a cat 3 based sheerly on positioning. A teammate laid it out for me how I was actually doing much more work riding mid-pack than the front of the pack and went from dropped to 2nd in my next race simply by never letting myself out of the top 20 wheels. On that course with a lot of turns, rollers, and wind my power was a whopping .8 IF whereas riders who got shelled were putting out close to .9 at roughly the same weight. You hear about it a lot at the pro level, but its worse at the amateur level. Your goal should be to do as little work as possible until you have to be it an attack, sprint, break, whatever so if you find yourself a victim of wind, caught behind crashes, having to chase/bridge, etc. its all tactics and not power.
355w is still a good FTP for flatter courses. Even if the front group is 400w FTPs you should still be able to draft on their wheels for a hard 30-45min if they were going all out. You're not light, but not heavy either so for the more power-based hills you should be OK if your 2-5min power is good. My guess is you've read Wattage, the Coggan/Allen book, and a few other resources and fall in line with their very limited line of thinking that FTP is the sole determinant of performance and thus everyone's limiter. Its not. Hell, a friend of mine has finished top 5 on the NCC calendar 5 times and his FTP is 320w@145lbs. He is damn good tactically and can respond to hard surges over and over and still sprint. You don't get those abilities from endless 2x20s, you get them from being very specific. FWIW his 5min power is actually around 415w, which is very good in regards to his threshold so he has a massive bit of headroom to surge over FTP and/or dig really deep when necessary. You need to not be asking yourself about w/kg, but why a guy with a certain wattage or w/kg is winning.
They sound suspect because I've seen winning files from really good domestic pros and cat 1 riders who don't have IFs that high even on selective courses. For example, a buddy of mine won a hilly cat 1 road race that was about 90 miles long. He was in the break all day and still did not manage an IF that high. The reason why is that he was super smart and rode very conservatively and tried to minimize his work, which is what most people attempt to do until it matters. His teammate, who was in the field, was riding his first category 2 road race and had both a higher IF and NP (they're roughly the same weight and abilities), but if you look at the file he rode quite stupidly. He was often too far back on the climbs so when the peloton crested and accelerated he had to momentarily dig a bit deeper. He also wasn't as far up enough when a crash happened and had to dig to bridge back on. Coming into the finish his power up the final climb was higher than the winner's, but he didn't crack the top 20 because he didn't start it far up enough.
I could keep giving countless examples, but most new riders do not know how to use their power. Regardless of who you're racing against this takes time to figure out. I got dropped a lot as a cat 3 based sheerly on positioning. A teammate laid it out for me how I was actually doing much more work riding mid-pack than the front of the pack and went from dropped to 2nd in my next race simply by never letting myself out of the top 20 wheels. On that course with a lot of turns, rollers, and wind my power was a whopping .8 IF whereas riders who got shelled were putting out close to .9 at roughly the same weight. You hear about it a lot at the pro level, but its worse at the amateur level. Your goal should be to do as little work as possible until you have to be it an attack, sprint, break, whatever so if you find yourself a victim of wind, caught behind crashes, having to chase/bridge, etc. its all tactics and not power.
355w is still a good FTP for flatter courses. Even if the front group is 400w FTPs you should still be able to draft on their wheels for a hard 30-45min if they were going all out. You're not light, but not heavy either so for the more power-based hills you should be OK if your 2-5min power is good. My guess is you've read Wattage, the Coggan/Allen book, and a few other resources and fall in line with their very limited line of thinking that FTP is the sole determinant of performance and thus everyone's limiter. Its not. Hell, a friend of mine has finished top 5 on the NCC calendar 5 times and his FTP is 320w@145lbs. He is damn good tactically and can respond to hard surges over and over and still sprint. You don't get those abilities from endless 2x20s, you get them from being very specific. FWIW his 5min power is actually around 415w, which is very good in regards to his threshold so he has a massive bit of headroom to surge over FTP and/or dig really deep when necessary. You need to not be asking yourself about w/kg, but why a guy with a certain wattage or w/kg is winning.
FWIW (not much), I concur with WMW and KW on the weight and power.
Raw power and power to weight figures are important for sure, especially when it comes to *training*. Racing however is a totally different ballgame. And as per anecdotes above, I have seen many (often masters) with relatively poor power outputs completely outplay the field. Invisible, "grey men" that only seem to appear when the break goes or right near the line, zero work done unless they have to.
"Still using all the muscles...except the one that matters."
Raw power and power to weight figures are important for sure, especially when it comes to *training*. Racing however is a totally different ballgame. And as per anecdotes above, I have seen many (often masters) with relatively poor power outputs completely outplay the field. Invisible, "grey men" that only seem to appear when the break goes or right near the line, zero work done unless they have to.
"Still using all the muscles...except the one that matters."
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG
mr4fox wrote:Basically, i was still significantly weaker than i was last week and the week before that. Id slept well and felt rested (before i got on the bike) and my Training stress balance (TSB) was at +17
Waaaay too recovered IMHO. Never that recovered unless sick or at the off-season.
Hi guys,
thought i should chime back in and thank you all for the advice. The A race didnt go so well for me. i got hit by a car a week before and my frame was written off. Had to build up an old Giant OCR frame with a head tube as high as a skyscraper to use for the race...but no excuses and i cant say that held me back.
I think i figured out part of my recovery problem. I didnt mention i live at 62 degrees north. the days are rediculously longMay-August. atm it doesnt get dark at all at night (the sun does set but only breifly). I guess my circadian rhythm is not accustomed to the endless day light as im from a sensible place where night time is dark and summers are warm. So ive taken your advices and backed off the 20min all out intervals.
So come race day i wasn't feeling any stronger but not really weaker either. i only slept for 3-4hours the night before but i cant say i really felt that during the race either.
I lost contact with the stronger riders on the first 30min climb. So I heeded your advices and tried to hide out of the wind as much as possible on the flat section between the 2 climbs and again after the second climb (we were a much smaller group by that stage). At the end I was the only one with the legs to sprint up the 2min30sec 8% grade to the finish line so I still managed 21st out of 188people. I shouldn't complain, but cant help but feel i can do better.
The strongest riders were really strong but there were many there that were not so competitive too. Again, this is a mass start race. All age groups start together. There are no divisions or categories other than age groups. To give an idea of the power of the strongest guys there, the guy that won is a local club member and he just won the Norwegian National Masters iTT last weekend. The same guy that pulled away from everyone in our first race of the season and soloed to victory for 80km in April and came 4th in a very popular HC hill climb 4 weeks ago. He climbed Geiranger-Dalsnibba (~1500m, 21km) in 1h04min... and he says he's too heavy to climb fast. So clearly i have to learn a different build tactic for next season. FTP/weight must be the strongest predictor of success in a race like this.
Unfortunately there are no flat races on the west coast of norway. The flattest one Ive done still has a steep climb that took me 11min@394w. ofc this is where the stronger guys from my club that I've mentioned already have attacked, broke away and rode off to win. So there is no sitting in on the flat and hanging with them. I can do that no problem with the chase group though.
Fwiw my recent 5 min best power is about 454w
havent done a fresh 20min test since may but i held 363w on a 20min climb last weekend (4 seconds off the KOM!! 4seconds!!!! aaargh lol!) so thats down a bit.
Unfortunately i cant practice racing on my own. All i can do is train and for that i need some sort of measure to compare my self to to determine if the training is working, and since my "A" race had 2 ~30min climbs i feel that ftp:weight (or 20min:weight) as a measuring stick makes sense. Next season i will work on my 5 min power much more for the other races. but either way i need to be stronger than this plateaued level I've been at for so long.
road racing is now jsut about over and wer're past the longest day of the year so time to practice building again before a trip to somewhere with big mountains and nice roads in August/September
Clearly i have much to learn about how to train. I have read Coggan/Allens book but have tried to use Joe Friels book as a guid. but neither are really specific about what exactly to do day to day during a build period. thats what these forums are for right? lol
! If i can afford it next year i want to invest in a coach.
Thanks again for all the tips. Ill defiantly work on building my 2-5min power and practice sheltering out of the wind more when ever i get the chance
Cheers,
James.
thought i should chime back in and thank you all for the advice. The A race didnt go so well for me. i got hit by a car a week before and my frame was written off. Had to build up an old Giant OCR frame with a head tube as high as a skyscraper to use for the race...but no excuses and i cant say that held me back.
I think i figured out part of my recovery problem. I didnt mention i live at 62 degrees north. the days are rediculously longMay-August. atm it doesnt get dark at all at night (the sun does set but only breifly). I guess my circadian rhythm is not accustomed to the endless day light as im from a sensible place where night time is dark and summers are warm. So ive taken your advices and backed off the 20min all out intervals.
So come race day i wasn't feeling any stronger but not really weaker either. i only slept for 3-4hours the night before but i cant say i really felt that during the race either.
I lost contact with the stronger riders on the first 30min climb. So I heeded your advices and tried to hide out of the wind as much as possible on the flat section between the 2 climbs and again after the second climb (we were a much smaller group by that stage). At the end I was the only one with the legs to sprint up the 2min30sec 8% grade to the finish line so I still managed 21st out of 188people. I shouldn't complain, but cant help but feel i can do better.
The strongest riders were really strong but there were many there that were not so competitive too. Again, this is a mass start race. All age groups start together. There are no divisions or categories other than age groups. To give an idea of the power of the strongest guys there, the guy that won is a local club member and he just won the Norwegian National Masters iTT last weekend. The same guy that pulled away from everyone in our first race of the season and soloed to victory for 80km in April and came 4th in a very popular HC hill climb 4 weeks ago. He climbed Geiranger-Dalsnibba (~1500m, 21km) in 1h04min... and he says he's too heavy to climb fast. So clearly i have to learn a different build tactic for next season. FTP/weight must be the strongest predictor of success in a race like this.
Unfortunately there are no flat races on the west coast of norway. The flattest one Ive done still has a steep climb that took me 11min@394w. ofc this is where the stronger guys from my club that I've mentioned already have attacked, broke away and rode off to win. So there is no sitting in on the flat and hanging with them. I can do that no problem with the chase group though.
Fwiw my recent 5 min best power is about 454w
havent done a fresh 20min test since may but i held 363w on a 20min climb last weekend (4 seconds off the KOM!! 4seconds!!!! aaargh lol!) so thats down a bit.
Unfortunately i cant practice racing on my own. All i can do is train and for that i need some sort of measure to compare my self to to determine if the training is working, and since my "A" race had 2 ~30min climbs i feel that ftp:weight (or 20min:weight) as a measuring stick makes sense. Next season i will work on my 5 min power much more for the other races. but either way i need to be stronger than this plateaued level I've been at for so long.
road racing is now jsut about over and wer're past the longest day of the year so time to practice building again before a trip to somewhere with big mountains and nice roads in August/September
Clearly i have much to learn about how to train. I have read Coggan/Allens book but have tried to use Joe Friels book as a guid. but neither are really specific about what exactly to do day to day during a build period. thats what these forums are for right? lol
! If i can afford it next year i want to invest in a coach.
Thanks again for all the tips. Ill defiantly work on building my 2-5min power and practice sheltering out of the wind more when ever i get the chance
Cheers,
James.
